Rangers Banter Archive June 17 2012

17 Jun 2012 21:52:21
Ed,could you shed light on whether there is a clause in the sky contract that says they can tear it up if RFC are not in the SPL. Or would Sky be in breach of contract if they cancel? {Ed039's Note - I would imagine there would be various clauses but I don't think they will pull out altogether)

What contract it has not been signed there is no contract to tear up

Current deal has two years to run....
craig+babybear

New contract being negotiated with sky without Rangers games mentioned.

Is there an inference that The sky deal should be an issue to consider regardings Rangers crime and punishment?

17 Jun 2012 18:17:27
For those doubting RFC retain history, I site the 70s/80s Band called "The" went bust one hit wonders , formed a newco band "The The" loads hits in 80s BUT retained their chart history , I should know I run their fan club ask any of our 7 fans they will confirm we retain our full history, Ann O'Rack - The The and The Rangers Forever

History is an intangible and cannot be bought or sold.
No football club in the world has 'history' sitting in the balance sheet with a value.
Hod could it be valued? 20titles, 30 titles, 60 titles? {Ed001's Note - it is an odd idea, but Leeds transferred it to a phoenix company and Fiorentina bought their's from the original Fiorentina. I am not convinced Scottish law would allow it to happen, though it would be a good way to raise more money for creditors during the liquidation process.}

You can buy or sell products or services, history is neither.
So does it go to auction? Can Zi bid and own the Rangers History? Can Celtic buy it and have 100 titles history?

So thats the American franchise system and now defunct bands that have been used to try and keep the history of a dead club current! Face it,the next trophy you win will be that clubs first,there is no argument on this..........green jhedi

JG, I think that the OP, Ann O'Rack, was having a laugh, but it did make me wonder; if (as King predicts) the newco will be back in administration within a year will any new newco be named
"The The Rangers Footbal Club"?
Al

Yes i was joking we lost our history ... ann

17 Jun 2012 20:25:38
I'm a long standing Gers man, but I am fed up with all the arguments for and against. Rangers, through financial mis-management are no longer the club I grew up supporting. Let us be practical, there are no punishments that will satisfy everyone, so for once the SPL/SFA should act as the organisation they are meant to be. Deal with the situation and take the lead. Unfortunately they will not, because if everyone is totally honest Scottish football without Rangers at the top table will die. Might not be right but very true.
Also, they should do all in their power to verify that duff and phelps have carried out their function correctly. This newco farce is robbing all creditors and is an insult to basic intelligence, it is robbery, withot even a mask. There is no way that the assets should be stolen for £5.5million when worth conservatively £80million.
Just think, if the value of assets were realised it would have covered all debts.[ with no big tax bill and ticketus in dispute.] The big tax bill is not on the books and ticketus money did not benefit the club and is in dispute.
With creditors paid we would deserve a chance, otherwise close the doors.

What happened there, i agree with your first paragraph but you lost the plot after that, are you really a bear? by the way assets are worth what ever anyone pays for them you sell your house car whatever, you get what someone will pay, ibrox is a stadium, who wants to buy one of those i

JG

You've just said the club you supported is gone so why are you saying If the creditors were paid you deserve a chance? It's too late! The club you supported is GONE, no more chances, the doors are SHUT ALREADY!

The really question is: will you support the newco?

In reply to 1.] If losing the plot is being honest then I've lost it. Rangers financial management, including the newco, is theft and deserves whatever punishment is issued. JG don't ever dispute my credentials as I am Rangers to the core.

17 Jun 2012 18:57:46
For all the history debators NOTE - in America reforming of franchises/clubs is commonplace. If you care to look on ALL their teams sites from the Redsox (they OWN Liverpool now too), NY Rangers , Giants and countless others in Baseball Hockey and American football . EVERYONE of these teams includes their previous and current histories in their TOTAL TITLES WON STATS OKAY ??? The ONLY thing we will suffer is a tiny * noting the amonut of titles won as Rangers FC and the amount as The Rangers FC . I am sorry Timmy it is irrelevant what all of you are arguing over , FACTS ARE FACTS in 20 years or 100 years it will be Rangers and celtic still with records (thats history for you timmy) showing ALL titles won by the team Rangers regardless of which form they took and the same with celtic THIS IS THE END OF ALL STUPID ARGUEMENTS all you have is a few years wind ups and teasing THE FACTS WILL BE IN PRINT AND HISTORICALLY DOCUMENTED the wind ups and piss taking WILL NOT - WE WILL RETAIN OUR HISTORY ACCEPT IT AND MOVE ON preferably to 2nd Best team ever in Scotland Site where you belong.... The George - Historian and Rangers Fanatic {Ed001's Note - you really are wrong. This is nothing like the situation in the US and the Red Sox do not own Liverpool. This is just imbecilic in its complete misunderstanding of any of the facts. You may be able to buy your history off the old company, that has yet to be decided, but you don't just keep it. This isn't the same as someone buying a franchise, like happens in the US. This isn't a takeover. This is administration, followed by liquidation. Green has bought some of the assets, then created 'The Rangers' to make use of those assets. Not even close to a similar situation at all!}

The Red Sox do not own Liverpool - FSG owns both of them.

Dear god,will you give it up? How many people do you need to tell you? Goram,Gough,Walter,Green your new chairman.You are taking denial to new lengths here............green jhedi

Ed your talking nonsense The Rangers cannot buy their history from Rangers oldco in liquidation. Absolute tosh. Nonsense. History cannot be bought or sold. 1899 finishes in 2012 end of. {Ed001's Note - no one knows, it has never been done in Scotland, so you are talking out of your backside. It is most probable that it won't be allowed, but it is not a definite until it is tried. Until it went to court, and a judge made a ruling, there is no way of knowing, one way or the other. So please stop trying to sound like you know something, because you clearly don't.}

Well said Ed. For a post with a lot of capitals it was decidedly lacking in facts. Most cases of team changes in the US are geographical (not administration/liquidation related). In fact it would suggest these teams were in a fairly healthy position of they have other cities/states chasing them. Baltimore Colts, St Louis Cardinals, LA Raiders and Rams. Not once was a lack of pennies the need for their new franchises. Nonsense OP from start to finish FACT!

Let this sink in slowly,the rangers you supported,watched win those trophies,is dead as the dodo,an no spin or watp bluster can change the facts,save it,we aint buying into your fantasy tales of a club no longer in existance.deluded doesnt do you lot justice!

3) it cant be done ?? do sone research ur wrong mate it has happened in italy GIRFUY

Forget the bureaucracy for a moment, and consider who has won the 1899-2012 trophies? Yup, it's that team playing in blue at Ibrox. So as far as everyone is concerned, the history goes with the team.

But wait. What about the debts, the law suits, the punishments? Surely the bad history goes with the team just as the good, yes?

OP im on your side but you are ranting and turn off the caps lock pal

JG

Fine i will check in 5 years and i think you will find all the records will show rangers fc stats including from 1872 to 202 with an asterisk to indicate change of name that is all that will be remembered- there no capitals and that is a fact wat and see, plus i wold check your facts there have been many changes of ownership and demise of franchises through financial meltdowns, personally i do not care the 9 in a row happened we did it and it wont go away neither will the 54 forget it timmy, The Rangers forever , george

Lets put this do we keep our history to bed its getting pretty tedious if people
want it to be kept so what lets just get this sorry mess sorted so we can concentrate on football regardless of what division its in

Ed1 what part of rangers is getting liquidated, not the football part that has been purchased to continue with it's history {Ed001's Note - oh I give up, you have no idea what you are talking about.}

Ed regarding your colourful retort at 3) I find I have to disagree with you. Nobody has taken the purchase of 'history' before a judge because it's a ridiculous notion. It is neither a product nor a service, nor is it listed on a balance sheet as an asset with an appreciating or depreciating value.
What your suggesting is that my local team could purchase old rangers 'history' and legally own the right to 54 titles, etc... Then trade or sell it on to another entity.... History is an intangible. I suppose someone could buy the royal family's history and legally declare themselves monarch of UK? Total nonsense. {Ed001's Note - I agree, but there are precedents of it being done in England, Leeds did it. It is bizarre though.}

Right lets try and get my head round all this! Oldco currently still in administration before liquidating, Charles Green consortium form newco and purchase all assets of Rangers Football Club! Newco hold all assets of said Football Club before continuing as a sporting entity! Old financial entity liquidated! Ok so as I see it! Rangers football Club have not been liquidated but in fact have been sold to a new holding co! I would assume that all history has been purchased also or are the new owners not allowed the keys to the trophy room that holds 140 years worth of honours! That's 140 years btw not 113 since the holding company took over the financial aspect of the club! It's not difficult to understand surely? My head hurts trying to explain it to everyone! As Mark Twain once said...don't argue with an idiot as they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience! I've found that to be so true recently!

Op...how SAD are you? sounds really really SAD, you say since it happened in baseball and other leagues that yous can do it..LOL! you fans of a dead club are too much, thanks for all the JOKES, that you are. cant wait to hear your next rant, sounds like to me that you are trying to prove to yourself that your club is still running when IN FACT IT IS DEAD AND FINISHED! FACTS! maybe you can go and try and join MLB that way you can keep your history and be the first football club to play in a baseball league...OMG too funny thanks for that, i truley feel sorry for you in how your legends f*#cked your mind up so much, but maybe in time you and others WILL WAKE UP.

The football club-- Rangers Football Club plc formed in 1899 is being liquidated. The football club is an incorporated entity. It IS the business or company and it's the football club being liquidated.
Insolvency law in the UK forbids a Newco trading on the styles and logos and history of the oldco.
UEFA requires Newcos to play 3 years to attain footballing history before getting a UEFA license.
Rangers history stops.

I'm a Celtic fan as some of you already know but I have no problem with Rangers keeping their history. I am not going to wake up tomorrow and suddenly recall my first Old Firm final as a Celtic victory (League Cup Final October 86). Their next League Cup win, for me anyway, will get added to that and any others they have won. However you keep the history good and bad, EBT's won't get brushed under the carpet, two contracts get fully investigated and sanctioned if appropriate, cant just keep the good history. So if at some point down the line certain trophies from 2001 onwards get stripped so be it. Either start at zero or start at 54 league titles with a strong prospect of that figure diminishing, I have no problem with either. But you cant cherry pick your history, all of it or none of it.
Gaz.

So what if Celtic are the highest bidders for the History? Or St mirren? The records will show that Rangers won the titles and trophys up to 2012 and from there on they were wond by THE rangers

17 Jun 2012 15:53:12
Daily record reports McCullouch first player to stay with newco.

Cant fault Big Jig for his loyalty. Wish we had more with his attitude.

Yes and the tide of offers he turned away..... seriously I like his attitude too but hardly one of our stars... george

If true suspect he is being way overpaid and knows he could not better the deal.

He was targeted as the first to get signed up by Green and Ally. They pushed the boat out for him. They needed one first success and he was it.
He has a condition to walk apparently if it's sfl3.

It's not on DR website.
Green hasn't given offers to any players yet. They're all on holiday.

Some gers fans make me sick i know big lee an he is doing it for the love of the club unlike some

He cant stay at newco until he signs for newco ....TTTS

Who else would have him?.. He's rank.

Hoopey67

17 Jun 2012 12:46:59
Pure comedy gold . There's an " In Walter We Trust " rally organised for Saturday in Bellahouston Park . Pillar of society Mark Dingwall is behind it .........DH

Dingwall thats where he should be exiled to, the guys an embarassment heard he
he isn,t even a season ticket holder

Duh it was actually "In Walther we trust" there is a James Bond rally at SECC idiot did you not see the "Blowfelt's a Fanny" and Moneypenny is a pure RIDE" banners?

What good is this rally going to provide but cause division between the support! As much as i look up to walter and is a legend to me,the timing of this bid was terrible.Why wait to the 11th hour. Could this consortium not have came out earlier and fought it out with Green before he secured the new-co.I understand why people are weary of Green but what would have happened if he hadn't come in when he did!I think he deserves a chance,with walter on board hopefully.

17 Jun 2012 15:16:57
Club 12 till I die ... Eh up lads it's the first division next year for us , just can't see club 12 being voted back into the SPL ... Club 12 till I die

Britvic 55 or how about club orange lol

Wont be first why should we subsidize those leaches drop to the3rd and bin their sky deal bank for-close on their loans and at least 2 enemies gone in a season with more to follow

Club 12 are dundee fc. So the sfa member clubs are you're enemies ? What an appalling post on a website dedicated to a sports club. The Murray era is over. Whatever your club becomes it will never again have access to huge bos funds again. Many of you will disappear when reality bites. The 23,000 regulars before Murray 'took' over will be the norm.

17 Jun 2012 12:43:34
Walter Smith was not named by BBC’s Mark Daly as a recipient of an Employee Benefit Trust in the recent documentary, however, before this matter is put to bed I expect more names to emerge. As soon as Smith makes himself available to a proper journalist he will be asked:

Did he receive EBT loan payments from Rangers?

If so:

Did he repay those loans or hold his cash while the club ran out of money and died?

Was he in receipt of a letter from Rangers confirming he was not required to repay?

Did his then employers, the Scottish FA, know he was perhaps receiving money from a member club while employed by them?

Are SFA employees contractually inhibited from taking payments from a member club or required to inform the SFA board of any payments received by a member club?

Did his earlier employers, Everton FC, know if he was receiving money from another club while employed by them?

Was Smith contractually inhibited from taking payments from another club or required to inform Everton of any payments received from another club?

As manager of Rangers, was he involved in negotiations with players who had EBTs or was he another one who concentrated on administrative and legislative duties?

Was he one of the men SFA president, Campbell Ogilvie, suggested failed to reveal side contracts to the Rangers board?

Rangers’ liquidators, BDO, will forensically pour over most of these questions, so Smith’s answers will be verifiable.

No one who played an active part in Rangers EBT scandal will come out of this clean. The ramifications multiply if Rangers were discretely paying any senior employee of another club.

Now there is a question to be answered by the SFA surely if Walter was in receipt of EBT while Scotland manager that is a dual contract and SFA must be punished {Ed039's Note - Rumours with no substance)

Why post this as we all now no action can be taken against a newco ed should start a MIH rumour page

I take it your not familiar with defamation law in Scotland then?

Post 3 right or wrong the op used did or was.those are words of question not statement. your defamation statement therefore rubbish.and i think with everything going on those questions are pertinant.especially as we know there was several court actions used to suppress information from the original programme. if walter has nothing to hide,he has nothing to fear.

I saw Ally McCoist in the documentary on the wall of shame in the data room. Everybody on the wall had an EBT. And Ally was up there.

There has been no denial. Defamation laws as you call them are reliant on truth. Ally will be asked this question eventually and he will answer. If he has had one, well..........

17 Jun 2012 13:29:23
I don't understand how so many of the tic can say "they can't be allowed to get off scot free."
The old club that committed all the crimes has been LIQUADATED
Is there any other punishment greater than that ? They are no longer a club!
So how can you say the newco can't get into the SPL scot free? THEY HAVEN'T DONE ANYTHING.
Unless of course you want to associate us with the old history in that case 54 titles and counting :) {Ed039's Note - Liquidation isnt a punishment, its a consequence)

We never paid tax we went into admin our cva was rejected so we were liquidated in the eyes of the law liquidation is the punishment for financial mismanagment. {Ed039's Note - But its not a punishment, liquidation is a consequence of financial mismanagement, I know what you are trying to say, but its not a football sanction)

Surley you must have now seen the plan, which is liq the old club and start new with all the perks of the old club, stadium ect.. you only have recieved 160k punishment to date all the rest is done by your dead club. now you have to be punished because whats to stop every club from running up MASSIVE DEBTS and then starting new, thikn it as monopoly (which im guessing thats just too hard for you to understand that in its self because your dead club realy have messed yous up) and your using a "get out of jail free card". most you fans say newco=oldco well then if your thinking that way HOW and WHY would you say how can they be punished?
when a club has been acting wrongly and that ONLY match fixing is a worse crime then you MUST and HAVE to be punished or maybe just pack up and move to Italy where you would fit in perfectly over there with there match fixing.

Well Ed i would rather have my bellend in a vice for 12 hours than Rangers liquidated consequences are a pnishment if the consequence affects the offender to the degree they DONT EXIST anymore , I defer to your english and the relevance but it is still a serious consequencial punishment , agreed ? The George

17 Jun 2012 13:14:28
How about changing this site to Club 12 rumours lol

17 Jun 2012 11:47:34
Can I just say to end all arguments our history didn't die last week. Instead our future began. Ic

Right you are the next title would now be your first as always wee welcome the chase

Yeehah we will be the FIRST team ever to win Div 3 , Div 2 Div 1 then SPL in 2016 , 4 years later it will be 5 SPL titles to Celtics 4 the future is bright the future is Orange (Stadium rights and Training Ground sold to holding Company for Orange Communications) WSTP ....The George

@2; Well heres hoping your right george,but somehow i doubt it...........green jhedi

17 Jun 2012 11:08:43
Ok heres the bottom line as i see it. I have given your lot grief since day one but lets look at facts. Rangers oldco lost ten points for going into admin - job done. Oldco now liqudated - job done. History starts again as must newco from sfl3 once that is established then no further punishment can be levied against the newco its NEW. Any further sanctions for past offences must be directed at oldco i.e. trophies stripped. New club deserves the chance to start anew. If it starts with new history as it must then it cant be made responsible for oldco transgressions. Look forward to beating you again when ya get back to the Spl. Glasgow Celtic most succesful club in the world still in existence. MMI2009

In your mind mate, u just keep thinking that...

Stripping history isn't punishment it's simply putting the record straight. Taking the jewellery back from the thief. But the thief still needs punished.

17 Jun 2012 11:06:42
Euro 2012 group A

Can someone please tell me how Greece goes through instead of Russia as I can't work it out?

Same points total but Russia have a better goal difference.

Cheers {Ed001's Note - head to head record, they beat them.}

On all titles where Celtic and Rangers drew on points but Rangers won on goal difference, Celtic would have won the league on head to head record.

No it was actually they played rock,paper and scissors, Russia had scissors and Greece had the rock so on the basis a rock breaks scissors Greece went through - source UEFA site.... The George

17 Jun 2012 09:38:10
Season before Souness took over average attendance under 23,000 so what can we expect in Div 3?

17 Jun 2012 04:34:41
I've just read an article in Sunday's Scotsman and you know what? I've never been so depressed and scunnered with Scottish football as I am right now. I'm 46, I've been to a load of old firm games, it is brilliant and there is nothing like it, from joy to despair and everything inbetween it is unsurpassable. I'm sure everyone says that of their derby and will never be convinced due to personal passion that their's offers but there are players the world over who've experienced more derbies than most of us have that swear the old firm game is the best and short of Boca/River Plate, Barcelona/Real Madrid (which isn't a derby in the strictest sense anyway) I think we have easily one of the best two in the world. But right now if I never see another one again, so be it. If I never watch a Scotland game again, so be it. Last year Neil Doncaster compared Scottish football favourably to the English leagues in the sense that per head of the population we punch above our weight, taking a near 10-1 ratio he pointed out that even our lowest league clubs by getting gates of 300 more than match up to English lower league sides, what he didn't point out, nor was asked by the ever inept Scottish media was "so which model based on the 10-1 premise is correct?" Or to put it another way should Scotland have 9.2 league football teams or England 420? That is THE fundamental problem in Scottish football, too many teams. And how does it affect this and why is it part of my utter growing contempt for a sport I've loved all my life? Because if the clubs were bigger/stronger/better supported we wouldn't have the situation we have now because without a shadow of a doubt Rangers fans as of next week would be looking at a fixture schedule that involved playing perhaps half a season worth of games due to suspension and those remaining games would be against East Stirling and the like. Make no mistake a league with a good infrastructure and teams not chasing every buck would already have done this, the crime count is long and weary and it must take the most churlish of Gers fans not to realise that kid gloves have been applied so far in every measure meted out. Deny it if you must but there is no way in the world any clubs bar Celtic and Rangers wouldn't have been hit by the kitchen sink so far and it pains me that my club Celtic would be the cause of that much conflict too. I think it dawned on me this afternoon when Tom English said any club that requires another club for their survival isn't much of a club anyway (or words to that effect), harsh but never have truer words been said of Scottish football. We are not talking a burger van outside Chrysler in Linwood where when it closes you suffer too. No club in Scottish football's top league should be so in necessity of the old firm and similarly that should not be exploited by the big two. And what has this led to? On one side we have authorities so petrified to do anything remotely meaningful to Rangers that at every turn, bar perhaps the embargo they couldn't enforce, they have bent over backwards to accomodate Rangers. Three months for the EBT documents to be delivered by D&P, an enquiry only began after years of rumours and ultimately the beeb exposing it, then finally it being put on sabbatical while they establish if it can be applied to a newco. Endless delays on the league vote on re-entry and potential sanctions and then finally today, the SFA suggesting they want the SPL and SFL merged, conveniently this might lead to Rangers being parachuted into Division One which, as luck would have it, is just about palatable for Sky. We are in a unique dysfunctional land where the TV is wagging the tail of the dog. On the other side we have Rangers, all powerful. It is said that if America sneezes Europe catches a cold. The threats, marches, claims of tainted titles, demands for exposure of panels, boycotts of clubs, sponsors, you name it, suggests a Rangers sneeze brings everything bar the Bubonic plague. I pray Celtic are never in this position because a bunch of our fans would no doubt do the same but at the same time the obstinance of a sizeable element of the Rangers support to fight EVERYTHING has been breathtaking and frankly, stomach churning. I really think the whole thing is screwed now, no appropriate justice from one side, no humility from the other with forty teams more than happy to go along living like parasites off of two bloated clubs too powerful to be dismissed and too beneficial to be called to task.
Gaz

Gaz. Your points about the league and state of football in this country are bang on the mark mate.
However your other point about Rangers getting the kid gloves treatment is wrong. As is your view that Celtic would be treated any different.
The point is there has been no precedent for what happened to RFC,so that's why they have had to make the rules up ad-hoc.
Like it or not,the "Old Firm" are/were Scottish football. All of us are now witnessing the fallout as to what happens when the most unlikeliest of unions is broken up.Whether Celtic fans or anyone else likes it or not,the old firm do need each other.More importantly,the Scottish game needs both of them.
P.O.B.