Rangers Banter Archive October 19 2012

19 Oct 2012 22:21:01
To anyone who thinks that HMRC have agreed to anything about Rangers at the moment are mistaken. They will just start to investigate the goings on of Murray, Whyte and Greens takeover deal with D & P which I hope has been done properly. I think we will see a few truths comming out and if it holds up the liquidation how can the share issue go ahead? Surely it would be wrong to do this before creditors and creditors of the old club know what is happening.
Bobby

19 Oct 2012 17:55:38
Rangers boss McCoist points finger at Whyte but believes in GreeN
Rangers manager Ally McCoist has dismissed comments made by former owner Craig Whyte about his time at Ibrox.

19 October 2012 16:10
Green wheeling out McCoist to criticise Whyte and prop Green up. What is the football manager doing commenting on these issues? We called on him to stop this and focus on football. Important game imminent.
Ally your a mug being used by these guys but I guess your getting paid handsomely by Green.

Look back to when mcoist wheeled out whyte and blamed it all on murray his comments sounds like he reading it from the same script

Ally mcmoist has a 5% share,in the basket case club,formely known as rangers

McCoist is Rangers through and through alright, Rangers like Murray, Whyte, Bain etc, this duping of fans by a former legend is disgraceful, at least now we know why he wont walk away despite being utter s***te at his job.

Seems alley did not have ebt and the one remaining gers giant who could save club or damn it, poor man

if he walked away tomorrow it would undermine the share floation and skupper that, but if he thinks its only way he should stick with it.... hes sat with murray,whyte and green and knows the score.... only him

he could form new fan led buyout...but is he brave enough....? loyalty of fans not it question


gullability is key here and zeus captial look built to explot loyalty and gullability....

Look for links between liberty capital and Zeus capital.

19 Oct 2012 16:19:55
Listening to Whyte now he knew the game was over almost as soon as it begun, circumstances most notably Alistair McCoist's failure to get the club to qualify for any European competition.
There is no doubt that Green's outfit need money and they're turning to a share issue to raise some. In a years time what's the betting that circumstances are attributed to the collapse of Sevco.

Were McCoists team expected/ directed to fail to euro minnows? Thus starting the whole process?

Sevco was a temporary name for the New company (newco). This was required for Rangers the Club, to operate in time for the new season. Sevco is now The Rangers fc, and soon to be, Rangers plc 2012. So it can't collapse, its already moved on! But on the last note, we will have to wait and see.

19 Oct 2012 13:43:14
The return of the ostriches! better get them heads out the sand wounded bears and get tore in about greene for his real objectives& why has he spouted too many lies to mention,more dark clouds looming..time yous had someone with a bit of decorum too interview greene and get the truth!!stevo

Why just disagree?as cant come up with a decent reply,the truth hurts!!!!

Why bother replying to that idiot? he wouldnt know the truth if it slapped him in the face...mark.

Probably disagreeing because of your history of pathetic posts. Just like celtic fans disagreening when Ibrox clearly is classed as 'elite- used to be 5 star. {The Ed039's Note - Stevo, as well as your history of pathetic posts, you have really shown how daft you are, Ostriches dont bury their heads in sand)

Hi stevo you been watching too many chuckie films ,not good for you ,1 a week is enough ,coming out soon the return of chuckie with a tic shirt on lol doug t.s.o

19 Oct 2012 12:44:23
Charlie Chuckle kidding on that 34K fans will pay £500 each and now Craigy Bhoy rises from the ashes.
BDO have their work to do.
Close the whole place down & take Ogilvie etc with them.
Corrupt to the core

19 Oct 2012 07:39:20
hi ed and fellow bears, thought it is interesting the reaction to craig whytes statement by individuals and certain bodies, i.e green/ duff & phelps, most have come come out and denied everything he has said. the only body who has made no comment, so far as i know is the sfa/spl, whose silence is deafening on this matter. would be interesting to know what they knew and when they knew it !! boyblue

Denied... oo thats a bit strong.

Said he "misleading"... which is not really denial.

SFA/SPL no need to say anything, so what gers looked like going into admin in Oct last year, till it actually happened not much SFA/SPL could do.... ?

Real issue was admin in the sale doc of rangers FC as a serious possibility.....

if yes then murray knew this possible, so why not sell players etc to reduce costs and avoid admin????

Supposing the SFA/SPL had came out in February and said "Yeah we knew about this in October." First thing would have been thousands of Rangers fans saying "So why weren't we told?" They had to look as shocked as everyone else. Besides what difference would it have made? Long and weary you have said about the EBT "We haven't been found guilty yet." So as of February 12th the bodies really couldn't act till it became fact. Fingerpointing when the blame was all internal alas.

Gaz

Gaz. It isn't fingerpointing. Most Rangers fans accept that Murray and Whyte caused the chaos within our club and it was entirely internally caused, but the SFA and especially the SPL have to take their share of the blame for the fallout and how it was handled. Are you suggesting that you were happy with no legislation being in place to definitively deal with the situation resulting in a vote occurring which consequentially could have resulted in Rangers retaining a place in the SPL or an SPL led plan designed to parachute Rangers into the first division? I seriously doubt it.

As I mentioned in a post lower down, they could have easily legislated for the outcomes of May and June and they allegedly had eight months to do it. They didn't, and that is gross negligence on behalf of the two highest authorities in Scottish football in my eyes.

The outcome of their deliberate inaction caused serious bad blood between the sets of supporters, which, in hindsight, was completely unnecessary and entirely avoidable. If the written statutes and articles of association stated that any SPL club which entered the liquidation process would have to start again in Division 3 (and they had eight months to ensure it was in place remember - almost the length of a full season) then very few could/would have argued against it, the 'integrity' brigade and the SPHellers wouldn't still be arguing about it, and the atmospheres at the grounds (when/if Rangers return to the SPL) would not be reminiscent of the poisonous ones of the late seventies/early eighties (which is my biggest fear as a fan attending future games with my two young sons).

The issue, in this instance, has nothing to do with the use of EBT's, dual contracts, or any of the other alleged/actual misdemeanours of Rangers Football Club: it is entirely to do with a serious lack of leadership at the very top level in dealing with a situation which has resulted in our global standing being reduced to a laughing stock and our fans (even the more sensible ones) at each others throats. If they had the balls to create the laws so the consequences/punishments were clear on entering liquidation WITHIN the SPL (the SFL already had rules in place for their leagues), instead of forcing the fans to make the decision for them, then the reaction wouldn't have been anywhere near as volatile as it has proven to be.

Questions should be asked of them regarding their handling of the situation but too many other things (i.e. EBT's, dual contracts, etc) have provided them with a buffer to hide their incompetence behind. Unfortunately, these questions will probably never be asked now but that doesn't make it right.

Brian

Brian they were a shambles throughout it but a few other issues needed sorting too. And I disagree with you on one point, all the different problems were interlinked to some degree or another. Several of which were not aided by Rangers directly or indirectly.

There was a possibility of Rangers being severely punished for the two contracts. D&P held onto the relevant documentation for months after requested. Also nobody could really do anything till the CVA was either accepted or rejected. The panel still had the power to possibly expel Rangers altogether. Then Ally throws in the "Who are these people" hand grenade. An action that quickly garnered a "to hell with them" mentality across Scotland.

In some cases we are talking about small-minded agenda-driven idiots. Ally's statement hardened everyone of their opinions. Bear in mind we are talking about a body (the SFA) who DECLINED an offer to the 1966 World Cup on the grounds that we didn't win the Home International tournament. Declined! Now they would bite the hand off you for a play off.

Campbell Ogilvie's conflict of interest was another reason the SFA were reticent in their dealings, as was the lack of a signing of the Sky deal regards the SPL.

I don't think for one second they dealt with it well but I wasn't expecting anything else to be honest, I've never rated them.

But, for me everything was moot until the CVA was decided. Everything rested on that. No point relegating a team and getting bad press through a quick, decisive two contracts ruling to find that due to a failed CVA they will ultimately be following Livingston's path anyway.

Why endure that scorn and wrath, boycotts and threats when another path (which already has a precedent) can achieve the same result?

Where they got it massively wrong was in the expectancy that Division One teams would bite the hand off them to have Rangers included. Again they failed to gauge opinion correctly and failed to realise the knock on affects and that some teams just thought if it's good enough for Livingston then it's good enough for any club. Again, given that this was an agreement by all affiliated clubs I don't think Ally's name and shame was a good move. Everyone, Rangers included, agreed that these people remain anonymous. Ally done your club huge damage with that shameful outburst.

So for me Brian a lot of things were wrong in how it was dealt with I agree wholeheartedly with that but a lot of them were inter-related and a lot of them were not helped by a number of things within Ibrox. Be it the lack of a new owner for a time, the question of the CVA passing, the reluctance of D&P to hand over documents or Ally's stupid comments. Bear in mind Rangers appealed the first punishment meted down. An appeal that ultimately had every regulatory body thinking they had to be 100% on the ball with every further implementation.

At every turn Rangers did nothing to make this quicker, easier, less fractious or less controversial.

Gaz

Why is it the spl and sfa s place to tell your fans whats happening that should come from your own club and brian when the spl changed the rules on administration it was for the future after your club had gave promises that it had an agreement with hmrc for a cva and liquidation would not be an issue it was your clubs lies that made it an issue

Gaz. The op highlighted the issue of the SPL/SFA handling of the affair as a stand alone issue and I responded to it in a like manner. The points you make are all valid and D&P, as representatives of the club, have been as major a hurdle, if not more, to the process as the rest of the things you highlighted. I am still unsure of their agenda because they certainly weren't acting in the best interests of the creditors. As for McCoist I criticised him for it at the time and said he was wrong to do what he did. The main issue for me is that few people are taking these points and analysing them individually. Everything has been lumped together into one giant mess: old club/new club, oldco/newco, cva accepted/no its not, ebt's/dual contracts, history/no history, precedent (SFL)/ no precedent (SPL), etc, etc, etc and now we have Sheffield United, SDM/Whyte/Green, Octopus/Ticketus/Zeus, genuine share issue/get rich and get out share issue, etc, etc, etc.

The point I am really trying to make is that some individuals/boards are getting off scot free/an easier ride than they should have for their part in it because the Rangers situation has been such an unmitigated mess for the past year that their involvement in it can be easily and conveniently forgotten with everything else that is going on.

Has Petrie been receiving abuse at Hibs home games for creating the parachute plan from home and away fans? Probably not (I don't know) but he was the biggest user of the words 'sporting integrity' (two interviews I heard him give at least). Why is he still on the SPL board after that?

The SPL had eight months to formulate legislation to deal with the threat of a member club/ holding company (here we go again, lol) entering liquidation proceedings. What did they do about it? They decided to wait until the event itself and then very quickly legislated (six weeks?) for any club entering it in the future after the voting fiasco. Why did they not do that in October and face up to the fact that whichever club entered liquidation the rules were in place and their destination clear? It would have saved so much aggro for all involved, including us.

Then there is the 'financial armageddon' statement (which, believe it or not, I am happy to see not come to fruition despite predicting it, at length, myself), and the attempted bullying of the SFL chairmen to get them to do what they couldn't because of fan pressure. Not exactly the leadership you want to see I am sure but what has been done about it? Where are the protests, threatened boycotts etc that went in the direction of the SPL chairmen as soon as the SPL vote was mooted? It has been let slide and forgotten about.

Nobody in power has came out of this with any credit whatsoever yet the only topic of interest remains Rangers issues.

I want to see all of those involved in this entire saga (Rangers and non-Rangers) being brought to book and held accountable for their actions but it simply won't happen when Murray will hide behind his company, Whyte will disappear with his pockets bulging, Green (we'll just have to wait and see) and the non-Rangers contingent (SFA/SPL) will get to carry on as if their own behaviour was somehow more acceptable because Rangers' were so outrageous. None of them should get off with it - we are a laughing stock worldwide. Yes caused initially by Rangers, I am the first to admit it and it hurts me to say it, but compounded and made ten times worse by those with the power to deal with it.

Brian

Gaz. I have re-read your most recent post (and my reply) and I omitted the most pertinent and obvious point. Everything we have discussed so far would have been irrelevant (most of which were interconnected as you say, which I agree with to an extent - and by irrelevant I don't mean what went on at Rangers I just mean they would be moot points in relation to the outcome of liquidation) if the SPL had, at its inception, followed the SFL statutes and included a rule related to liquidation. It is not just the current SPL board to blame for this lack of leadership either, they are just the latest in a long line. They flirted with it twice previously and did nothing about it in terms of the rule book - Livingston were already relegated and an SFL club again before they entered liquidation, fortunately for the SPL; and Motherwell didn't get that far because the admin team did their job (unlike D&P), let go players and staff, reduced the overheads significantly and avoided it. Third time round they weren't so lucky and to compound the issue it happened to be one of the two biggest clubs in Scotland it was happening to. Then it really hit the fan and they have no-one else to blame but themselves for it.

My honest assessment of what happened is as follows: in October they chose not to believe that Rangers would actually enter liquidation as that was unthinkable to them. As more and more unfolded once administration became a reality (Feb to May) it became clearer that liquidation was inevitable and they started looking towards their own balance sheets to find ways of protecting their own interests (only natural) by keeping Rangers in the league. Then not only the vast potential sums owed to over 200 creditors plus Whyte's dodgy dealings with PAYE and NI AND the Big Tax Case on top of that were to the fore but the possibility of dual contracts became a serious possibility and the fans of opposing teams (not just Celtic to be fair - I have a pal who supports Stenhousemuir who was up in arms about it by this point too) couldn't stand idle any longer and forced them into a corner they couldn't even convince the SFL to back out of for them.

The behaviour of the last two stewards of Rangers is unforgivable and to allow it to reach the stage it did is indefensible - so I am not an apologist looking for others to blame and I view what went on at my club as criminal in certain instances.

However, whatever Rangers did or have been alleged to do still doesn't excuse those who made the situation even worse and the confusion at Ibrox shouldn't be used as a get out of jail free card for them either. I would have had slight sympathy for the position the SPL board found itself in if Rangers were the first club to flirt with liquidation but they weren't (and yes I blame the representatives from my club too as they were members also) but they had nearly twenty five years to put in place measures to deal with the possibility and didn't (how difficult would it really be to ask the SFL for a copy of their mandate and reword and legislate it for themselves - one two minute phone call for initial authorisation and two days at most for the admin probably). They also had two previous close calls and didn't heed the warnings, and then an eight months heads up and still, to use a phrase regularly used on here, they chose to stick their heads in the sand and hope it would all go away.

In terms solely of liquidation and its consequences, Rangers aren't to blame (about the only thing admittedly) for the votes etc and the protracted route this debacle took. This one is 100% down to the lack of insight of a governing body that should have sank along with Rangers for its ineptitude and gross negligence. If we truly want to have a collective game to be proud of (minus any more skeletons) we should have a single governing body operating under a democratically elected (one vote per member club - from kids teams upwards) SFA who actually have the genuine interests of our entire game (grass roots up rather than how deep their personal pockets are) at heart. Money, and I blame SKY for this one, unfortunately rules and the SPL will remain in place as the current SFA don't have the bottle to rein it in (they could - threatening to withdraw membership if they don't comply would do it) and the SPL clubs (bar Celtic) currently can't afford to go back to a more even split of the cash with the smaller teams.

It's a catch twenty-two situation really, but as a footballing nation we have far, far deeper issues to address on a national scale than what is going on at a now third division club. If we remain with two governing bodies under an inept SFA then I fear our situation will only keep getting worse and we will end up in with the Andorra's, Luxembourg's and San Marino's of this world before we know it and sink without trace.

Brian

p.s. Sorry guys, didn't really mean to go off on one there but the fact the SPL and SFA (to a slightly lesser extent) are just carrying on as if they played no part in the fiasco that unfolded over the summer really gets to me, as you can probably see. And that is said with the blinkers completely off, speaking as a non-partisan (as close as I can be anyway) Scottish football supporter hoping we can somehow learn from this disaster and improve our game for the benefit of all concerned.

A lot of that was more than fair comment Brian but as I said in my first post, though I could have explained it better. I really think the SPL/SFA were hoping that the CVA was a failure. It meant they had a precedent they could follow without getting the flak for punishing Rangers or acting quickly enough that their action became significant.

Lets face it the legislation you talk of should have been in place after Livingston or Gretna went bust if not even earlier than that. But I still think the mother ship in all this was the CVA. Even the untimely Walter associated bid came in after that. It was clearly key to a lot of people's consideration of this fiasco, investors, bidders, so why not associations and members too?

I agree they should have been proactive but when in history have the SFA been proactive? I don't see it as an anti-Rangers bias, I see it as further confirmation of their ineptitude.

This sport is very much results driven, in some cases financial results driven. Regards Petrie, with Hibs good start to the season, they wont be giving a monkeys at Easter Road. With regards Doncaster, if all 12 teams are still there in May, in what is proving to be an exciting, competitive league so far then he may escape the noose too, regardless of earlier doomsday talk.

The one thing I always thought of this league was with the transfer of Rangers out and Dundee in then that was essentially maybe 50-60 points above Dundee's total that were to be "redistributed" through the rest of the league.

The probability of a team being 11th to European qualifiers and vice versa within a fortnight will stay with us till at least March. That will keep it afloat, it's competitiveness and the prospect of European football being very much alive for at least 10 teams for quite a while. If 11th placed Dundee Utd win their three games in hand they are second for example.

To be honest with Rangers threats of boycotts to grounds and sponsors and Ally's faux pas polarising opinion I think most clubs will close ranks come Doncaster and Regan's next re-election/nomination and rubber stamp them for the next how many years purely to say "screw you Rangers."

I'm not saying it's right or it's wrong but the "get it right up you" mentality of Scottish football has probably never been more exposed than in the past 8 months.

Old wounds heal very slowly in Scottish football, the attempt by Rangers to remove Stenhousmuir, Albion Rovers, Berwick Rangers and Stranraer in 1964 even got a mention and a few hackles up. So it's no surprise, moreso with the looming threat of two contracts and its impact on any number of Scottish clubs that a number of clubs had an axe to grind. If that can be manifested (to annoy Rangers further) by endorsing Regan and Doncaster then don't rule it out.

Gaz

PS Brian, I'm the guy that agreed with you Lol.

Gaz

Can we have longer posts ed, these short ones are boring me.

I would love to keep up with these posts but its a phone iv got not a kindle lol

19 Oct 2012 00:31:01
the only one to blame for rangers liqudation is whyte and whyte only he sayed he was banking on the money for europe well if he got the players in that mccoist wanted we would have probaly qualified for europa at least no business should be banking on money that aint gauranteed so whyte to blame for these decisions failed to pay tax ect at fault again yeh david murray used ebts but was it illegal or legal we still dont have this answer if proven legal whyte is the one at fault for liqudation for one simple reason he never had the funds from day one dont forget our debt was managable and coming down whyte was never going to do a deal with hmrc due to his past so based on everying so far its craig whyte to blame not murray

Are people really that blind that they disagree with this post this tax case has still to be proven against us if it goes against us then yeh murray is partally to blame but forgive me thinking debt was manable still able to sign jelvic from the bank when they where in control untill mister whyte thought bugger i dont pay tax i will take all the money i can get from ticketus sell our star player at the time for buttons he must have walked away with a few pounds in his pocket tax case in our favour then there was no need for rangers to liquadate

So going by your logic it was Whytes fault that Murray ran up these debts. It Whytes fault that Murray has already been found guilty of non payment of tax(small tax case). Its Whytes fault that Murray never done proper Due Dil. Think you will find Murray has a lot to answer also.

Ian

EH think you will find it was Mr. Greene who put you into liquidation, according to him he's got the 20 million pounds to cover the share's issue, so why did he not use it to save Rangers ?. As for Mr Murray he knew all along what Mr whyte was going to do, so much for I would not sell to anyone who would harm Rangers.FFS face the truth you and the rest of the Rangers supporter's have been taken for mug's.
Tam

The tax case is lost. What will be pronounced is the appeal against the penalties. The old Rangers are not appealing against the decisin but against the penalties imposed.

#4 - this is quite simply wrong as I'm sure you know - HMRC present a tax bill - a company questions it - it goes to FTT for resolution - absolutely clear process and absolutely no question of case lost, appeal etc

Whyte chose date of gers into admin, thats all and only had about 8month window to arrange that in......

murray set gers on road to admin so obvious no other billionaire in world was interested......

green has caused liquidation with silly cva offer, as clearly getting £80million assets for £5 million was his aim......

fans to blame for allow this to thier club, and not organising boycott of season tickets as this money could have rescued club from the hands of assetstrippers...........

@5: you obviously don't know that a FTTT is an appeal. Check it out.