Rangers Banter Archive June 20 2012

 

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20 Jun 2012 22:16:50
green should chuck the new bid straight out for rangers then he mite just see sum fans taking him serious for a change

Believable3 Unbelievable1

20 Jun 2012 21:48:19
God Or someone else help me here we have yet another bid for our club.
Green must have known more than most to pick up this bargin for 5.5m.
I for one just want to know where and when to pay my money for season tickets for my familly as I could not care less what Div we are in as long as we get behind the team and that includes the owners whoever they maybe and support the club back to the nights we all want to see at Ibrox-no not the boring nights of Hearts or Utd but the real challenge of European Football-Let the Spl do its worst because the very fact that we have a strong support and a never say die attitude will see us back winning the league they want us out of now!

Believable3 Unbelievable4

His was the highest bid available to D&P.

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20 Jun 2012 21:37:05
I used to be on this site all the time but haven't been on for a couple of months as what is happening to the club is killing me. I was optimistic about he newco idea but there seems to be no end to the charges being brought against us. Walter smith would of been a great leader, and Jim McColl and Douglas park are loaded. What I would say to McColl is where the f**k were you a couple of months ago?
It was all too little too late. Green is a straight talker and we need to see how this pans out, we have been stung by Murray, whyte etc but we need to give the guy a fair crack of the whip. The fans need to get behind the club now and stop the negativity towards green. The guy offered the smith consortium he chance to get involved but they declined, that for me says a lot about green, can you imagine whyte ever doing that? No chance he wanted all his snakes on the board.
Just get behind the team now lads, wherever we end up I will be there!

J

Believable8 Unbelievable1

Quite right matey.

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20 Jun 2012 21:17:52
whats the situation with the new strip? is it void as it was released with the oldco name? will there be a new one out for newco?

Believable5 Unbelievable0

Has to be, minus the fake five stars

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20 Jun 2012 21:09:47
hahah what a farce
Alan Stewart was a banned form being a director of any business in the 90s for being dodgy, he would never pass the SFA test as someone fit and proper, but then after all its only crooks that are linked with Newco Utd these days, and Wattie walked away as he will be under investigation from HRMC for his EBT

Believable8 Unbelievable0

The SFA have a test?

do tell

bil72

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20 Jun 2012 20:51:36
Craig whyte is still involved in this I believe

Believable9 Unbelievable6

I think so too, always said he may pull off a master stroke yet. Perhaps lulling everyone into false sense of security- by playing the fool- or not, time will tell though.

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20 Jun 2012 19:02:56
Is there any news on the walk that was postponed does anyone think it might go ahead to show Green we need to be considered and are not happy at the lack of information

Believable6 Unbelievable8

Walter walked away ya nugget

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20 Jun 2012 18:55:21
Celtic supporters association to vote on Sunday and bhoycott any club that supports the newco. Sporting integrity you say, so once rangers are sent down and the SPL decide to vote on the restructure will the CSA play their bully card once more. Looks like the mask has slipped.

Believable11 Unbelievable14

Said for weeks now no one will be happy it will be either celtic or rangers fans who end up boycotting games.

the thing is if new rangers get into the spl how many teams will renew there ST at other clubs....end of the day no one will be happy.

lenny

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Celtic fans along with other clubs fans are threatening a boycott in order to preserve sporting integrity in the Scottish game while on the other hand you lot wanted to boycott games and sponsors to preserve your own existence even after the fact that you cheated.....big big difference...

Briggs

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Bully card? really?Is a boycott not what your fan groups were advocating?

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Was it not you guys that started the boycott trend...you should be proud it has been adopted////JohnnyG

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Bully card? Lets look at this so far.
10pt deduction for admin - called it a tainted title.
Boycott of SFA sponsors, Hills, Vauxhall, Sky.
Wanting Scottish Rangers players to boycott national team.
March on Hampden.
McCoist wants panel outed even though every club agreed they should be anonymous.
Threatened boycott of every SPL club that voted against Rangers in newco acceptance vote.
Threatened boycott of Scottish clubs who were creditors.
Pro Walter march planned, essentially an anti-Green march.
Anti Bill Miller banners. (yank go home - with a number of Americans on the park, real dumb that one).
Threatened boycott to Cup games.
And even today, a list of the CVA creditors who voted against the CVA being accepted appearing on other Rangers fan websites.
You are the biggest bullies in the history of world football.

Agree16 Disagree1

Could be but you are now doing it.

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JUST an IF

IF Lawell votes in favour of TRFC
will the beehoys be boycotting paradise then?

bil72

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Who gives a sheeite what the celtic fans think, or threaten to do. Most hypocritical fans in the world, every bit as bad as the bad eggs in our support. Rangers seemingly trying to bully other clubs, celtic fans appalled by it, so what do they do....................................glass houses etc.

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Great point number 5..... everything is ok for them to do but when they get a taste of their own medicine then its a different story........ and they wonder why more and more people are going against them

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20 Jun 2012 18:44:38
Sky sports:Another new bid! Is this going to be a daily occurrence. Two property developers by all accounts, I wonder what their after!

Believable6 Unbelievable0

A COMPANY run by two millionaire property developers is being chased by the taxman.

Allan Stewart and Steve McKenna's empire once boasted a turnover of £174million a year.

The partners' charity work has been supported by Bill Clinton, Tony Blair, Al Gore and Goldie Hawn.

But now one of their firms - Stewart and McKenna Ltd - is in court after Her Majestys Revenue and Customs moved to wind up the company and appoint a liquidator. The firm was the first the two men set up in 2005.

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20 Jun 2012 18:26:34
Hi all please dont shoot me down.We have Green at the helm, he now owns the club.So why dont we just give him a chance.Why dont we get behind the owners as one thing is for sure no one will invest if we dont get behind them.Lets not forget its not him who has put us in this mess. I will re new my season ticket for whatever league we go in.Lets give him a chance

Believable9 Unbelievable7

I'm sorry but Green is a 'snake in the grass'. Don't trust him anymore than Whyte, will keep my money ( and I'm sure a lot of others will also ) until he clarifies what are his plans for newco Rangers. He is being vague The fans about what his intentions are.

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Well said cant beleve some of my fellow supporters give the man a chance dont listen to most of the things you read most of them want to see rangers die but not real football fans who understands whats happened at rangers its all the hard working rangers fan that have and will face all the punishment alone

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The guy doesn't know what league or if we can be in a league next year FFS! We cannot do anything til July! What do ou want him to tell you? He has said here wold be a budget for ally that has already been agreed. He has been open about he issues facing the club and is trying to resolve them! Just get behind the team FFS and stop the pish.

J

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Well said 3. The guys being as clear as he can be given he can't know what's going on yet. SPL, 1st, 3rd (or England) couldn't care less where we play, the gers are my team.

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20 Jun 2012 18:15:54
New bid for Rangers from Allan Stewart and Stephen McKenna property developers. I have had more than enough of this now can these publicity seeking w*****s just leave our club alone.

Believable13 Unbelievable7

They won't be the last. Until the football side is sorted out, asset strippers will regard Ibrox and other properties as worth going for.

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This 'bid' is solely to push supporters towards the Green camp, nothing more.

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McKenna went bust a few years ago owing the taxman.sounds like bull.............green jhedi

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20 Jun 2012 17:38:12
I might not be very clever but ever since these problems arose the tabloid press in Scotland certainly seam to be very anti Rangers. Their slant & terminology is poisonous & it seams to me deliberately so. It would seam that anything positive is ignored with the negative whether true or not is promoted sensationalised. It looks like these two tabloids are trying to bury us. Anyone else see that aspect of their coverage ?

Believable11 Unbelievable13

Totally agree there is an anti rangers agenda driving alot things on at the moment. They can disguise it as standing up for sporting integrity and punishing the "big bad rangers" but underneath it all is the is the undertone of pure hatred for the Rangers supporters culturally and politically.

Gers1986

Agree5 Disagree6

And what do you see as the 'positives' in this whole sorry saga ?

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It's always been there, just been brought to the fore now, getting their kicks in whilst it lasts.

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After being on your side for so many years and being anit Celtc and shouting out hate to Celtic you now see them for what they are....they are not antirangers for that club is gone and they are just trying to get in ppls good books.......you all seemed to love and didnt mind the paper when is was always talking shoat about Celtic.

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Would this be the same tabloid press that has fawned over everything Rangers for years? The same tabloid press that heralded the arrival of Whyte? The same tabloid press that didn't report anything to do with what he was really like? The same tabloid press that refused to believe the club would be liquidated? The same tabloid press that has reported nonsense for months and increased the hopes of Rangers fans that there will be a miraculous ending to all of the mess?

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Is this sevco 5088 fans getting paranoid

hail hail

Marco1888

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For the OP, you're right about one thing, you aren't that clever. What utter nonsense. The tabloids are in the business of SELLING newspapers! Don't worry, eventually Rangers will be tomorrows chip paper.

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The bottom line is rangers have done wrong..... so why on earth are they going to report on stories about how great yous are..... remind me what has rangers done lately that can be reported in a good way promoting rangers???

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The tables have turned only recently.Rangers have had it easy for years,they could do no wrong.The press have indeed fawned over them but also -- and more influentially,radio and T.V. commentators.Some,like Archie and Chick,really tried to hide their admiration but it shone through.The press need 'bad boys' and they certainly have them now.Even they can't ignore the seriousness of tax avoidence etc,etc.

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20 Jun 2012 17:23:34
My son and son-in-law are devastated with what has happened to their club and I hate to see them suffering - even as a Celtic Man.
I know White and Green are getting a lot of flakk for their part in this mess; but why are Rangers fans not clammering for Murray or Smith etc to come clean and tell you what you need to hear?
The EBT matter is next on the horizon and Ogilvie seems to be implicated also.
When we were on our knees in '96-97' the Celtic support were out en-masse to oust an incompetent Board and find a solution and I think you should be after the real culprits - even though they may have 'legend' status, as they are where the Buck truly stops.

JJ

Believable10 Unbelievable1

I take it you mean Gordon Smith in your comments! Your feeble attempts at getting Rangers to turn against club legends like Walter smith are totally out of order. You are 100% right about David Murray though.

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I have to say our supporters have not covered themselves in glory. I remember well when Celtic were in trouble and the fans took to the streets and demanded change and they got it. Our fans for too long, at least three years have sat back on our fat arses and waited for the problems to be solved, which they have not been, anything but.
Our so called supporters groups the RST ans RSA seem only to be interested in their five minutes on the telly, every time they speak thay make our position even worse. They are hopeless.

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Good to see some positivity from across the city for a change,we all know how your family feels we are hurting badly too, from the time we wake up till bed time its always in our heads/

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OP - Your infamous Celtic support who were not out in support started Save our Celts in 1990, which was taken over by another group in 1993 Celts for Change I think. After this your Board copped out in 1994, having ripped your fans, taxman and Scottish football off.
(so that's 4 years of what? It took them 4 years, )
Can you maybe enlighten me on why you were out en masse in 96/97?

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@1 Up till very recently Sir David Murray was a big hero too,just like Walter and Ally.There aren't any living heroes left, I fear

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20 Jun 2012 16:06:58
greens made a booboo buying this club ...thinx he finally has realised that without us he has nothing.....dont think the watty deal is dead yet....a wee column to say he is gutted is a sympathy card .....dont like green never have ...never will.......deecee

Believable5 Unbelievable8

Still burying your head in the sand decee.henke7

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Dont like green but yu would have walter and all your legends back eh? all the cheats you want back, all the cheats that led your club down the road to jump off the cliff, with that thinking your club will never be back

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Your having a laugh again eh? Without you he has ibrox, Murray park and the car park to sell along with other assets so it would be very foolish of you to suggest he needs you because at the moment he's all you have. So I would say they you need
him more he needs you. As for Wallie he's away get over it.

Briggs

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So are you supporting newco or not? Your feet must be sore with all the dyke jumping you have done............green jhedi

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2 glasgow men bid £11 milllion for rangers

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Agree Green is a crook and trying the Old Whitey Shuffle BULLs**t us till he causes enough false hope we stupidly buy seasons PLEASE EVErYONE DONT alternatively 3rd Div will help see him off ... Id rather a SECOND liquidation and Genuine WEALTHY (true wealth and Rangers Fans in control 51%)....george

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@6: why haven't genuine and wealthy fans taken over already? Could it be that they believe it will take far too much money to run the club and there will be absolutely no return in it for them?

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And where are these genuine wealthy Rangers fans?
The club has been up for sale for years.
It has been in administration and actively seeking a buyer since February.
And has been in liquidation for about two weeks.
All during this there has been no one who wants to put real money into the club and it ain't gonna happen until there is a bit of clarity about the future. Even then I don't think anyone will come in to pump vast amounts of money into the club.
Al

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OK to all our celtic friends on here lets try and get one thing straight.Our club might never return this is a true fact we seem to have been done over by someone called WHYTE who bought a player called CELIK now we need to hope someone called GREEN has our best interest at heart.Honestly you have to laugh what is the best way to destroy your biggest enemy infiltrate them then destroy from within.Sorry all my fellow gers this looks like a very clever plan from the off.Ithink if i was a journo i would be going looking for people who knew WHYTE when he was younger and find out what team he really supported as i am confident it was not rangers.

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20 Jun 2012 16:04:29
"Charles Green says he wants SPL clubs to make a business decision when voting on Newco next month. it's not about passion, it's not about commitment to a cause, it's purely about doing what's right financially as there's no money"

Source BBC

Right, just bought us and he's now saying "no money" FFS. Couple of weeks ago we were going to be buying EURO players.

We're def out of the frying pan and into the fire now!

Believable9 Unbelievable4

It's not next month, it's two weeks today we're out of SPL and go to SFL to beg entry.
These hard nosed SPL chairmen will have nothing to do with sentiments of helping rangers when they'll make more money getting higher SPL positions, prize money and euro spots to fight for. And two cups!

Agree5 Disagree3

CG would say that, wouldn't he.

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20 Jun 2012 15:35:02
Well, up till now have ffelt pretty sorry for Rangers fans but after reading Nacho Novo's sick rant on Twitter not any more.

Believable6 Unbelievable6

Don't believe everything you see on Twa**er. You are aware there are imposters?
Anyway,why would this change your mind regarding the fans,or was it just that your sympathy never ran that deep
to begin with?
P.O.B.

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So judge everyone on the back of one tweet, rather shallow and a tad bigoted dear chap.

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It's defiantly the wee rats account for sure

Briggs

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Even you must admire the wee man's defiance though briggsy?!? :-)

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@2: so to comment on someone for a bigoted tweet is bigoted? How did you work that out? Are you Nacho Novo?

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Okay I'll bite, I'm a Celtic fan, I think Novo's account was hacked. However 8 days ago as it was announced the CVA had failed a post appeared on another Rangers website, I saw it with my own eyes. "May Murray and Whyte rot in hell" fair enough I thought, I can see where Rangers fans could be that angry. However there as a second sentence. "Along with Tommy Burns and Jimmy Johnstone." There and then any sympathy I had for anyone associated with Rangers evaporated. Celtic may well have equally moronic supporters with equally skewed hatred but there lies a deeper stupidity in that quote that I think even the most hate filled of Celtic fans hopefully wouldn't have expressed. One the two players in no way, shape or form could be involved in Rangers financial demise, two, it is well documented that Jinky was great friends with a number of Rangers players when playing. Ally McCoist, to his eternal credit, described Tommy Burns as the best person he had ever met. Do you think these Rangers players (I'm thinking Henderson, Baxter etc for Jinky) would endorse this? With fans like that I'm surprised your enemies aren't tenfold.

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@4 predictive text is a ba$tard lol!

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20 Jun 2012 15:13:27
apparently 4th of july vote on SPL admission is to b a secret ballot. What have they got to hide?

Believable5 Unbelievable3

Err,intimidation from the idiots both clubs sadly have?.........green jhedi

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Dont want us in ,but want our money

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That says it all. They want to vote NO. But don't want Rangers fans to know.
Ally won't be happy with thus! Yessiree Mr openness and transparency needs to speak out!!

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They want a secret ballot so celtic fans dont know who are voting yes/no cause they are threatening to boycott games next season cause they are childish....I personally hope they vote us out cause i want Rangers to build from Div 3 and come back with the real fans and not the hanger on glory hunters we collected during the 90's and personally because i dont wanna give any of the other SPL chairmen any money...I said me personally remember before you all jump down my throat not Rangers...i never bumped any of you....

Tam-Sir 1873 This wont get posted as I think Ed has took issue with me... {Ed001's Note - I will block you if you post one more childish little remark like that.}

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@3 can I guess that if Rangers are voted back in the 'bhoycott' brigade will be demanding to know who voted Rangers back in, Jhedi is right for a change it protects the clubs from the idiots on both sides.

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Sorry Ed, but I was starting to think you were taking issue with me cause you werent posting any of my comments...Dont know why as none of them were that bad surely...anyway thanks for posting that one above..

Tam-Sir 1873 Is sorry to the ED..

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20 Jun 2012 15:12:04
Gulity....Rangers were guilty of financial mismanagement and we apologise on behalf of our previous owners.
However Murray was guilty of not seeing the recession and his whole empire crumbling...otherwise he could have dealt with any fallout from CBTs... also he was poorly advised... however ...Cheating!!?...

Sporting integrity and cheating!! Diving or tugging or professional fouls or whatever. Claiming a foul when it wasnt etc etc.... That IS Clear cheating togain a sporting advantage..

The german player who recently admitted handball for a goal which the referee gave. Lineker ... never booked. 2 episodes of sporting integrity in a sport littered with petty rule breaking... and we the supporters blame referees.

Financial mismanagement is the correct phrase... pure and simple. Serious nonetheless and important. and were sorry for it.... but dont wrap it up as "sporting integrity"...

and another thing. your joy at our pain says a lot about you... and dont say we havent said sorry...i have...on here... repeatedly... no King has..... Murray and Greene wont but THEY ARE GONE and discredited.
You could welcome back the newco to build a better scottish football or carve your pound of flesh... but Shylock was never the most admirable character!

Believable8 Unbelievable11

Linekar was booked once........green jhedi

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The usage of the EBT scheme by SDM will very likely be viewed as giving the old RFC an unfair advantage over all other competing clubs. Will you still eat humble pie and say 'Sorry' when you are stripped of the trophies awarded during that period?

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Linekar was never booked

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No we wont, will you shut up about EBTs once we arent stripped of titles....nope didnt think so...

Tam-Sir 1873 Petty Greeting faced celtic fans need to enjoy bein the best team in the country instead of worrying about us..

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Linekar was booked once in China!

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OP I applaud what you say mostly and if you have apologised then fine, to date not much punishment bar consequences so it remains to be seen if you are as humble after them. On another point, three times you mentioned apology followed by one "however" and two "buts". Is it that hard? A fullsome, unequivocal, caveat free apology? It's like getting PAYE out of a Rangers chairman, as the taxman would say.

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The situation is hardly caveat free though, is it?

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20 Jun 2012 14:53:12
GREEN SAYS """We've been speaking to the PFA though and to individual agents and as the players come back next week, Alistair and I will be sitting down with them and explaining where we are."... IT WOULD BE NICE IF HE COULD TELL THE FANS WHERE WE ARE AND WHO THE 20 MEMBERS OF HIS CONSORTIUM ARE ?...jsm

Believable11 Unbelievable0

Couldn't agree more we still are in the dark about what's happening BUT HE WANTS US TO BUY OUR SEASON TICKETS NOW,! would he buy an business owned by someone he'd he didn't trust because they wouldn't tell all

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Untill he explains what the future is and who is putting money in he wont get mine

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20 Jun 2012 14:30:57
CHARLES GREEN and Ally McCoist will meet with Rangers' players next week to discuss their futures after the club's assets were transferred to a new company.

The issue of how that affects the Light Blues squad has not been fully resolved yet and the Ibrox chief executive puts that down to a number of reasons.

He cites the summer break as one along with the fact certain players, such as Carlos Bocanegra, Maurice Edu and Sone Aluko, have been out of the country on international duty.

Green has, however, been liaising with both PFA Scotland and representatives of some individuals since he took officially office last week.

Players are due to start reporting back to Murray Park for fitness training on June 28 and the Yorkshireman plans to have discussions with them and manager McCoist then.

Green said: "From the moment HMRC announced they wouldn't support the CVA, we contacted the staff and had a meeting with them and the administrator made them aware.

"We as a newco started having discussions and as far as we are concerned, all the contracts transferred under TUPE.

"Of course, the difficulty is some of the players haven't been around and the likes of Bocanegra have been away on international duty with the USA team.

"They've also been having holidays and taking their families away so it has been more difficult with the playing staff than the non-playing staff.

"We've been speaking to the PFA though and to individual agents and as the players come back next week, Alistair and I will be sitting down with them and explaining where we are."

Up the creek without a paddle I would have thought.

Believable5 Unbelievable5

If he has been speaking to the PFA,would wishart not have told him the players were now free? Thats what he said on radio.........green jhedi

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Wish he'd stop threatening players with this TUPE stuff. Senior lawyers don't even agree players have to move so Green's bullying tactics are just going to depress everyone at the club.

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20 Jun 2012 14:21:14
I want RFC to go forward, but what I have read contunually is buy the season tickets - fund the new RFC, the fans are important and no wonder.
While the fans have been shareholders and paying customers their money has been financially mismanaged over the last decade.
It is the fans, the paying customers, who are going through the worst of this and are expected again to pay up front but for what? There is nothing from the Green consortium and this is after comments about the number(s) of investors but no names and no final number, no financial details.
I read that Walter Smith is hurting after deciding not to go forward with his consortium. Of course legends will but fans are waking up every morning looking for good news and have been since CW took over, more than a year ago.
While it is easy for a fan to say to 'if i had the money i would do something' it appears that it is just as easy for someone claiming to have the financial backing to say ' the fans need to support the new club and buy season tickets'
I think it is time that the ordinary fan has a role other than to just simply fund a new RFC and then be expected to turn up and to fund the club again by purchasing food and drink, strips etc while the new owners appear to be doing what? I don't know.

Believable10 Unbelievable1

20 Jun 2012 14:20:49
I am a football fan - enjoy watching matches at the highest level possible, mainly in England but still with an eye on my local team ( neither Rangers nor Celtic). Although I will travel a long way to see an evenly matched, competitive game I would not get on a bus for 2 hours to see Rangers play the likes of Dunfermline, in SPL or not.
I regard myself as a customer of those clubs I visit - they owe me nothing other than admission and I have no debt to them other than the ticket price (and maybe a pie at half time).
I am therefore amazed at fans being asked to pay £800 for a season ticket on the ground it will help their club. If you were a Tescos customer and the store was up the financial creek would you promise to pay whatever they wanted for products they may or may not stock.? Or go to ASda?
Incidentally I don't think many of those who have an unhealthily close relationship with a club they claim to love are married with kids to consider - there's not room for more than 2 in these relationships.
Wake up and smell the bovril - you are a customer and source of revenue - that's it.

Believable9 Unbelievable5

Im a promiscuos shopper... asda tesco or whatever.....
but a LOYAL supporter of my club... theirs a big difference.
incidentally I have a Wife and 3 kids whom I love dearly, but love is not an exhaustable product...when u have your 2nd kid you love them as much as the first. your love is not diluted..... Soooo I love my team, they are a not a convenience like tescos. So i support them and commit to them... life long. This is explained very nicely iin the book FEVER PITCH where the author realises hios love of arsenal will outlast his marriage!! and that he truly could never love another team... I watch other sports and enjoy them immensely.. but my team (Rangers and now newco or whatever) gives me highs and lows which are irrational and inexplicable... and I love them both...
Just now in the dark days.. my loyalty and support will be unswerving... It defines me.. If my wife is ill or betrays me or whatever I will work to make it better. Its how I am. Its commitment. Its loyalty. Its supporting. you may like your football. I Love my team!!

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You are a visitor to odd games (big games only i reckon) we are supporters - big difference, if all clubs depended on occasional visitors like you football would be pumped

JG

JG

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I am also a supporter of a football team, and I recognise everything you say with regards love, loyalty and as you say Fever Pitch sums it up completely.

However your clubs survival does not fall at the feet of the fans. Green is just another Whyte.....he has not declared who the other investors are, he has not declared what sort of finances he has to run the club in a proper and profitable manner......yet he wants your season ticket money now. What happens if you are relegated to 3rd division......will he refund you? What happens in the event of him selling up to? Do you get your money back? Love and Loyalty are are admirable virtues......but I'd wait and see what he's plans are.....before splashing the cash.

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20 Jun 2012 13:31:31
I’m sick of the Celtic fans giving it the “EBT’s are dual contract and cheating” statements, while claiming they are whiter than white.

Celtic confirmed that they operated an EBT for Juninho worth £765,000 which the club did not specifically declare to the Scottish Football Association or the Scottish Premier League.

The payments made to the trust were included in Celtic's annual report for 2004/2005 (just as Rangers did). In 2008 the club became aware of an event giving rise to a potential tax liability which was subsequently paid after agreement with HMRC.

Yes Celtic paid off the Tax Liability, which I believe, was the correct thing to do. I would have also expected Murray to pay off Rangers Tax Liability and admit he was wrong to use them. (none of this taking to 1st Tier Tax Tribunal)

My point however is, will the SPL/SFA punish Celtic punished for this Dual Contract? (Yes it was settled 3 years later, however there is no getting away from the fact that it was a dual contract at the time)

Surely they cannot punish 1 club for Dual Contracts but let another off scot free?
Rules are rules and they must be adhered to…in order to maintain sporting integrity.

Juhinho made 14 league appearances for Celtic and 1 Scottish Cup appearance during the 2004/2005 season. With Hibs finishing 3rd in the League 31 point behind winners Rangers and 30 behind runners up Celtic – so if Rangers are stripped of this Title its highly possible that Hibs should be awarded the title (as Celtic cannot benefit from games where they fielded the ineligible Juhinho)

So not only have Rangers cheated Hibs out of a Major Trophy and achievement but CELTIC have too!!

W-Lyl

Believable13 Unbelievable15

Seems fair to me.Vital fact is that Celtic ditched the EBT as soon as there was any dubiety about it.They also paid the taxes due.Your point does have some validity though.If we have to hand a title back so be it..........green jhedi

Agree9 Disagree2

Juhinho tax paid. rangers how many players ?. how many seasons.how many directors? how many managers ? non playing staff . it just asks more and more questions of rangers..... geo.

Agree5 Disagree1

Clutching at straws comes to mind!

Agree6 Disagree1

Yes we had 1 EBT which is common knowledge which we paid back and as you say we should be punished, you had 63 EBT's, none have been paid back and never will be, I don't really get what your point is to be honest

Agree5 Disagree3

Are you sure of all your facts or are you making assumptions?
There is no secret that Celtic used an EBT, nor that they realised that it could be dodgy and rectified the matter before it became a problem.
My point is, how do you know that Celtic used the EBT in the same way as Rangers did. The SPL have seen documentation which they believe points to Rangers using second contracts/side letters, call them what you will, meaning that rangers had players who were incorrectly registered.
Did Juninho have a side letter? Was he incorrectly registered?
I don't know and neither do you. If the SPL think Celtic have something to answer for then they will follow up on that in due course. At the moment I think they have enough on their plate with all the problems that Rangers and Sevco FC have forced them to deal with.
So keep your hair on.
Al

Agree5 Disagree2

Well pal it is a drop in the ocean to what our club has done but none the less it is still cheating although i guess nothing will happen due to the fact we won the league but it may put to bed any 12 in a row P*** they will be spouting if we are stripped...

Tam-Sir 1873

Agree1 Disagree3

Good point OP, the fact they paid the HMRC the outstanding tax is admission they didn't make the proper tax and NI payments when he was there.
I think also all the footballers and directors of clubs who have been involved in Tax Avoidance schemes that have now been hammered by the HMRC, should be named.

Agree2 Disagree2

I'm a Celtic fan and if so fine, I've got no problem with that. Fair is fair after all. (Man, don't you hate it when the opposition come across all reasonable and rational.) So now we're looking at loads of Celtic's in a row, a Hibs, loads of Celtic's, maybe two Rangers, a Celtic, soon to be followed by loads of Celtic's, hell I can live with that.

Agree4 Disagree1

And i told you all this a few months ago about Celtic using EBT, wonder when the spotlight will go on Hearts and Hibs, both teams used EBT also.

Das Shadow

Agree2 Disagree0

Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth £765,000 but the club did not declare the
trust payment to the Scottish Football
Association or the Scottish Premier League. The payments made to the trust were declared in Celtic's annual report for 2004/2005, but in 2008 the club became aware of an event giving
rise to a potential tax liability which was
subsequently paid after agreement with HMRC.
Hope that clears this up for you.
p.s If Rangers(IL) are stripped of titles and/or cups I dont think fans of other clubs would want to claim them. Davie c

Agree2 Disagree1

Celtic confirmed that it established one EBT scheme in April 2005, which BBC Scotland understands was for the benefit of the Brazilian midfielder Juninho Paulista. The scheme was worth £765,000 but the club did not declare the
trust payment to the Scottish Football
Association or the Scottish Premier League.The payments made to the trust were declared in Celtic's annual report for 2004/2005, but in 2008 the club became aware of an event giving rise to a potential tax liability which was subsequently paid after agreement with HMRC. Hope this clears everything up davie c

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Celtic did not have a double contrace when paying his contract, His contract included his EBT and his image rights! We have paid all the money back and the only contract Juninho signed was given to SFA.

We have not avoided tax payments. Thats the bottom line!

DazzaBhoy

Agree3 Disagree1

As soon as EBTs were questionable Celtic corrected the juninho situation paid all tax etc and kept the SFA and SPL informed. All above board and the second place achieved cleanly and honestly. Rangers didn't do that.

Agree3 Disagree0

Regarding 4)surly it doesn't matter whether it's 1 or 63 you equally broke the rules so don't through stones in glass houses

Agree2 Disagree2

Lets get this staright. Juninho's EBT was payed to him AFTER his contract at Celtic was terminated. It was a way of paying his contract up. There was no side letters/contracts and all tax was payed to HMRC. Totally different to what your club was using EBT's for

Agree0 Disagree0

@12 You did avoid tax payments as you paid the tax some 3 yrs after the event and discussions with HMRC.
@15 His EBT payments were included in your annual report for 2004/2005. His trust payment was not declared to SPL and SFA - double contract? The missed tax payments were not paid until 2008.

Agree0 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 12:54:46
In all honesty we all love Rangers but if you were as wealthy as Douglas Park or Jim McColl then would you not be easily to drop at least 5 million in each? If you cant own the club but have a share and be on the board and be able to guide the club and make decision then why not do that? I am honestly baffled by these 2 being such wealthy people and big Rangers supporters that they arent doing what every supporter would do and injecting cash in. Just my opinion if anyone thinks I am wrong but thats what I would imagine any of us would do and make the club stronger and be able to make decent decisions

Believable6 Unbelievable4

Why should they? They clearly don't trust Mr green, so why would they invest in rangers?

Agree4 Disagree2

They didnt get rich by throwing money away. .. green wants to run the club without debt meaning theres going to be major cuts im assuming. just wish green would spell it out for everyone so theres no more guessing

Agree3 Disagree0

McColl sold his company a couple of yers ago to a US company for 800m, the guy cleared over half a billion from it, he could uh us 50 times over And still be minted! He should of stepped up a long time ago. It was all too late so let's get behind green and see what happens. The guy is sorting the biggest mess ever so we need to give him a few weeks lol

RTID
J

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20 Jun 2012 12:05:56
I may be wrong, but didnt JJB buy the rights to our badge, logo and merchandise. Does that mean they dont own any rights to it anymore and it can be sold again?
Don

Believable2 Unbelievable7

Not sure the merchandise is of any use if we cannot be rebranded as Rangers FC {Ed001's Note - I don't know, it would be of use to put away for the future, it could be worth money.}

Agree1 Disagree0

Ur wrong

Agree0 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 11:49:53
First White,now Green,what's next i wonder for our great club, Professor Plum or Colonel Mustard ? BlackpoolBear.

Believable4 Unbelievable1

If it is colonel mustard i hope he brings his lead pipe a few heads need banging at our club

Agree1 Disagree1

What about the West Ham Chairman David GOLD ?

Agree3 Disagree0

My turn. David Murray in the Trophy Room with a bicycle chain.

Agree4 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 11:45:09
I wont be given my money to the vultures

Believable7 Unbelievable1

20 Jun 2012 11:03:39
Who else in the SPL has been using EBTs then? This is getting better and better !

Believable4 Unbelievable5

Well it def not Celtic. That has been made clear time after time.

Agree7 Disagree5

We don't know- because no other investigations have been done
& who says it was just EBT's?

bil72

Agree2 Disagree0

Celtic used the EBT system when paying Juninho, but they smelt a rat and paid it all back. We never had second contracts for any of our players, all the image rights were in the one contract!

DazzaBhoy

Agree6 Disagree3

It must be great to be in the know dazzabhoy, you seem to know everything from your bedroom? NOT, you know as much ad rest of us, NOTHING.

Agree1 Disagree3

Celtic used it for two players, Hearts and Hibs used it also EBT's for a one player each. All three teams after a period of time pulled out of the EBT and paid the full amount of tax.

Agree0 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 11:00:59
hi ed just a little question . if charles greens consortium purchased the club from duff and phelps prior to cva being rejected then he purchased the name intelectual property and all rights as well as all clubs assets .in effect he already owns the name rangers its just a matter of legal papers being drafted up to transfer existing name to newco ...if this is indeed true he has also purchased previous clubs history intact as this also constitutes intelectual property as it has a commercial value .i think that a lot of people dont realise this

Believable4 Unbelievable4

There's really no end to demented, feverish psychiatric screams in the night of History, history history.
It's goney bye byes .......
History is an intangible, neither product nor service it has no measurable quantifiable value. It is simply something that happened in the past- no more- it cannot be bought sold or transferred.

Agree4 Disagree1

Who cares about history they can strip as much as keeps you all happy but they cant strip my memory i dont care rangers as we have known them are gone and i doubt if we will ever be the same i know about fifty supporters who wont be back yes we should be punished and whatever the member clubs decide we must accept and move on but the bloodlust must stop i for one am sorry for any wrong doings my club has done punish us get on with it but remember there must be a product left to go to on a saturday im just not sure if im up for it anymore i dont trust the men whoo have bought the club and im not sure we will ever be forgiven no matter what punishment we get some people will not be happy till we are closed down and in the long run that would be the end of scottish football that is only my opinion many will diagree i realy hope this is not goodbye but right now i have no wish to go back to a football match again sorry on behalf of my club

Agree2 Disagree1

It cant be bought ?? Utter bull as forientina just dont exactly
That mate so GIRFUY

Broxi bear

Agree0 Disagree1

1.) So how can it disappear then...?

BB

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The point is if Newco win cups in the future they weill not be added to the existing total. It will be a new history. So persumabley if you win the Scottish cup then they will etch THE rangers on the trophy

Agree3 Disagree1

Anything he has bought prior to the CVA which was nothing would be liquidated

Agree1 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 11:00:49
Remember Rangers(IL) being presented with an award to commemorate winning 100 trophies? I was just wondering if it will be handed back with a full apology?

Joeshmo1888

Believable10 Unbelievable7

Glasgow city council gave them a trophy also. That needs to be handed back or sold to highest bidder at auction by BDO.

Agree8 Disagree3

Yep, all trophy's won with dual contracts in place should be returned . More importantly , David Murray and the directors who were in place during this disgraceful period in our proud history need to apologize to all Rangers supporters, and all of Scottish Football. Dave King has started the process and the sooner the other's follow his lead, the sooner we'll be able to move forward and work to regain our dignity

Agree5 Disagree2

20 Jun 2012 10:58:06
heard a rumour that extra security an police have been ordered for tonight at ibrox, not sure wot for :) nah not really but since av not seen it for a few days ah thought ah would post it for u's timothys :)

Believable6 Unbelievable2

Yeah and BDO booked a session at court of session.

Agree5 Disagree0

Lol. You beat me to it. H H

Agree1 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 10:48:16
Got to laugh at some people. Had a guy out fixing my central heating who half an hour solid rabbled on about Rangers not paying there tax, how it affects hospitals n vital services etc etc.
I stayed quiet nodding my head as I just wanted heating fixed.
Bill time" mate if u pay cash I can charge you a bit less & not have to add VAT if u pay by card it will be more & I ll
Have to add VAT"
I asked how does that work" cash job I don't have to put through the books. Save a bit of money for both of us. Taxman gets enough from me.

I then asked is not like what rangers did" no bud they done it for millions"

Seriously got to laugh.

Believable12 Unbelievable5

You should have paid by card then.............bet you did'nt though. Got to laugh eh!!!


Hoopey67

Agree4 Disagree1

20 Jun 2012 10:44:03
Well if no one is buying a season ticket anywhere as claimed it should be an interesting start to the season.empty stadia and full pubs,sky will be creaming themselves. In reality most will renew, I agree wholeheartedly with Neil Lennon who stated earlier a bhoycot would ony hurt your club.had to laugh at the proposed secret vote by the spl re newco, what next bhoys "secret Santa" bhoycotting of clubs you think voted yes, ha ha

Believable1 Unbelievable5

Can someone explain his post?

Agree1 Disagree0

And what of the bhoycott if Mr Lawell votes FOR TRFC.
Both clubs have stood by each other in the past, why not now?

bil72

Agree0 Disagree1

Oh he's Mr Lawwell now is he? Because he has a vote on Rangers being turfed out the SPL. Normally in here he's called liewell or worse. The difference a vote makes.
Incidentally if he votes to let this brand new club straight into the SPL his CEO job at Celtic park won't last long.

Agree2 Disagree3

@3. I think you will find that Mr Lawell will have a job as long as he wants it. Whatever way he votes. As he has the best interests of Celtic Football Club at heart.

In Peter we trust.

Hoopey67

Hoopey67

Agree3 Disagree1

20 Jun 2012 10:33:42
When are we getting a verdict on the Big Tax Case(IE The EBT Tax Case)?

I keep reading about Rangers having cheated and broke the rules etc but as far as Im aware no verdict has been reached on the use of EBTs.

Believable6 Unbelievable2

They have you by the balls but if it helps you keep clutching at those straws

Dannybhoy

Agree4 Disagree1

Taxation law and EBTs are linked to SPL rules governing player registrations, player contracts and illicit not registered payments.
You can break one tax law or SPL rules without breaking the other.
Rangers clearly broke both.

Agree1 Disagree1

20 Jun 2012 10:30:28
Smith, McColl & Park all Rangers men with the club at their heart? Why not come up with a deal that Green would accept - they had all the fans on their side!
What they have done is undermine the oonly person willing to help Rangers and cause more hassle. Dave King shouting his mouth of as well, this is the man who is being chased for £227m by the SA tax man. We are in a position where Green is the only show in town so we have to get behind him and support the newco, either that or we forget about Rangers and move on.
On a side note I expect the SFA to investigate every club re EBTs/ Double contrcats etc to be seen as being fair and transparent.

Believable7 Unbelievable4

Smith was naive and reckless.
Always out to do damage rather than good.
McColl never went on the media. Sitting in the background wishing to benefit commercially from the Green shakedown.
Was the £6m offer another loan? Don't even think they had a company set up.

Agree2 Disagree1

And the funny thing is Dave Kings probably put more money into Rangers than anyone in the past 20 years £20million pounds might be worth listening to the man whats he had back for it?

Agree5 Disagree1

Hes another Murray,if you ask the SA tax authorities you will know where he got the money to invest in sevco

Agree1 Disagree1

@3
Dave King never invested in Sevco.
He gave DM £20million,and invested in RFC.
This entitled him to 23.5 shareholding.
This means he has invested more than Murray,Whyte,and Green put together.
What he did or did not do in SA is irrelevant,and how come he's still walking aRound a free man?
Don't you just love these know FA's...experts in everything,except fact.
P.O.B.
P.O.B.

Agree1 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 10:24:47
everyone seems to be talking about 'sporting integrity'.It's great to know it's so important to everyone all of a sudden.let's remember 'sporting integrity' the next time one of your club's players dives,fouls another player,tries to get a corner they know they shouldn't get etc etc.waspy

Believable5 Unbelievable10

Also when managers start mouthing off in the press about the referrees directly before a big game.
Also about players and directors of clubs who have been involved in tax scams-sorry tax evasion, sorry tax avoidance schemes that have been hit by the HMRC over the last ten years let them be named.

Agree6 Disagree1

Football is football , Show me a game of football where a player doesnt dive , or shirt pulls or claims a penalty. where as one side say penalty the other says cheats.thats football,as we know it . prime example england last night had the luck or did they cheat .i dont thinks so just bad luck for ukraine. thats the game.
Now financial doping tax evasion /avoidance is an altogether a different ball game . geo

Agree3 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 10:16:03
what are mr green's motives?what has he said about it?

Believable0 Unbelievable0

It's a week since CVA day where are the 20 names of the consortium?
He named one guy who said he wasn't in it but was backing smith.
Where's the names? Where did the money come from? Is it clean? I've heard it's corrupt Indonesian money.

Agree2 Disagree0

Profit. To be fair he's never lied about it

Agree1 Disagree1

I give up,tell me?

Dannybhoy

Agree0 Disagree0

Ask Sally he will tell you as he is all for openness (oops or is that only when it suits him?)

Agree3 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 09:34:14
My son and I have season tickets and living in Fife we I have little change from £50 for every home match and that excludes the season ticket.
My son 15, was already losing interest and asked how we could be so comprehensively outplayed by Killie in the first match following administration.
I am sorry but I doubt if we will be back at Ibrox in the forseeable future. Just not value for money.

Believable9 Unbelievable4

2 Glory Hunters Right here people. Support your team its what real Rangers Fans Do!

Agree6 Disagree3

50 Quid to and from fife plus match day expenses? thats not too bad to be honest.........green jhedi

Agree1 Disagree0

@1. Which team would that be? The one that no longer exists or the newco - the greed and avarice of certain individuals has killed the team i supported for over 40 years. So if i find it hard to support a newco (It might look like Rangers, act like Rangers, or dress like Rangers - but for me it ain't Rangers) then i will seriously have to have a long hard think about renewing my season ticket, especially with Mr.Green at the helm, who i consider no better than Craig Whyte at this time. I just don't trust the money men anymore, and if that makes me a glory hunter in your eyes then whatever i say will not change that.

Agree3 Disagree1

Too Quote you "My son 15, was already losing interest and asked how we could be so comprehensively outplayed by Killie in the first match following administration." Money doesnt come into that stement. it more my team is s**t why should i follow. Fact is late 70s early 80s Ibrox was empty vast majority of the the i was there the good times and bad crowd dont wash with me. yes you may be one of the few that did but why stop now. Yes money men have bleed our club but doesnt mean it should loss or support. RANGERS TILL I DIE!!

Agree1 Disagree1

20 Jun 2012 09:08:59
just a thought but didnt greene say he would go if the fans didnt want him? well surely the fact the fans were refusing to buy season tickets while he is in charge is a strong hint

Believable5 Unbelievable1

20 Jun 2012 08:03:41
Personally am abit shocked that all the strips havent sold out. You would have thought everyone would have wanted to buy the last ever true rangers strip, to either keep unworn and just to know you own the last ever one. I personally have bought 2.
Don

Believable4 Unbelievable3

Does the Newco or oldco own the shops?

Agree1 Disagree0

Jjb own the rights to the lion share of the profit of the strips and other merchandise anyway i thought.

Agree1 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 02:38:51
We are not hearing the full story of the Walter bid. I don't believe his consortium have changed their mind I'm a few days and find it strange they accept any assurance from green. Could this be s bluff in a long game of poker?

BFG

Believable6 Unbelievable5

Undoubtably, but Green holds one particular ace. He does not care of Rangers survive.

Agree2 Disagree0

20 Jun 2012 02:04:45
Just wondering eds, is the name of this page getting changed to "the rangers rumours?"
Frankiebhoy {Ed001's Note - nope.}

Believable6 Unbelievable1

Sevco 5088 rumours has a better ring to it !

Agree4 Disagree2

Do you even know the name of your rumours page as you are rarely on them?

Agree1 Disagree0

19 Jun 2012 21:48:58
Hi ed, i posted last week and was not answered nor even shown. My question was will gers lose the current badge, strip, sponsors etc.. as we are now a newco?? thanks {Ed001's Note - I don't know to be honest, sponsorship would have to be renegotiated. The rest I am just not entirely clear on, sorry.}

Believable0 Unbelievable0

20 Jun 2012 01:31:02
Only 3 british teams never been relegated now, celtic, everton, arsenal. {Ed001's Note - not true, Everton were relegated in 1929 and Arsenal were relegated in the early part of the 20th century as well.}

Believable2 Unbelievable2

Wow than Celtic is the last one standing and truely on top...cool!

Agree10 Disagree1

Oh cool ed ta, CELTIC, only team to never have been relegated lol! {Ed001's Note - isn't there a few teams scattered around the world who can make similar boasts?}

Agree6 Disagree0

Ed001, I'm sure there are, but only interested in British element which you kindly provided the answer to. Cheery Scott. PS: Kind of pedantic of you to say though, considering the context of which my comment was posted, but hey never mind eh! {Ed001's Note - I was asking, not telling, because I wasn't sure. Recently a number of South American clubs, that had never suffered relegation, have been relegated. So I was wondering if there were other teams left. Nothing pedantic, which clearly is a word you don't understand if you think that you used it in the correct context anyway. And yes, that is pedantic of me to point it out.}

Agree1 Disagree1

If you knew your history, currently there are 3 teams in Scotland to have never been relegated. Celtic. Rangers (not been relegated yet and possibly wont be at all). And Aberdeen. They retired from the league during ww1 because of travel disruptions along with 2 other teams and were reinstated after the war. Therefor you cant boast to be the only team. Lots of other teams also have never been relegated from top divisons such as barca real Madrid bayern Munich Boca juniors chivas in Mexico Santos and many more.

Agree1 Disagree1

Am i missing something as I cannot remember Rangers plc 1899 ever being relegated, only liquadated. Is it not the Newco that would start possibly in Div 3, even then, it would be there first season therefore also not relegated. plus there are tons of teams in the world that can boast the same. Your attempt at a windup has truely failed.

rikkisixx

Agree4 Disagree1

20 Jun 2012 01:27:50
SPL clubs do like to cut their noses off to spite their faces, imagine a Scottish top flight without rangers, would it be worth watching, er no I don't think so and what about revenues where is it coming from, oh dear other clubs will be struggling to balance the books very shortly. BE CAREFUL what you wish for!

Believable6 Unbelievable11

Not worth watching if your a rangers fan, but for the rest of us? I think it would be .

Agree2 Disagree2

20 Jun 2012 00:03:59
See King has apologised for the behaviour and lack of humility from the club.If only this had been done a few months ago,the anger may not be as great from all the clubs and their fans.At least it's a start.

Believable12 Unbelievable1

Don't kid yourself pally, the bile would still be flowing. They couldn't care less about an apology, they are already saying it's either (a) disingenuous or (b) proof of guilt. So it's either a denial or a chance for a wee gloat. Can't help it, it's their way.

Que the "it's fans like you" rant. Couldn't care less, the majority of fans are good people that I have every respect for, the majority of fans on here to put the boot in are bigots.

Agree4 Disagree3

19 Jun 2012 23:36:00
We might have lost our 3 games at the euros but seen rangers die like winning the world cup ;). Walter was on holidays when ranger died Walter was on holidays when rangers died. Bigirishmac p.s what's the rangers Fraud story all about?? Boommmmmm

Believable6 Unbelievable9

Either youve been in jail ,or your too embarrassed to show face for your teams crap performances at the euros ,face it mac were up and running again ,feel free to apologise to other posters for absence lol doug t.s.o

Agree6 Disagree3

Big irish i usually have a lot of respect for celtic fans on here as id hope that you would with us unfortunately ur national team were shocking and got pumped so you didnt really lose , you were only there for a holiday... p.s is it true an irish young fan has vanished over there...
Dont worry about us we will be just fine and dandy no matter what division we play in..
craig+babybear

Agree1 Disagree1

Well CB maybe with your new club you's could leave the idiots behind and start fresh. Maybe cut out the We Are The People crap and all the shxt that goes with it. It's a big chance for you's to get abit of respect back. Yes there is a young lad missing and I hope he dose be found for the parents sake. Bigirishmac

Agree4 Disagree0

@2 he was found dead today,garlar07

Agree0 Disagree0

I hope the crap goes too but your sounding a bit high and mighty lets be honest ur club aint gonna go bust but how will you clamp down on it.... sorry to hear bout the guy not good,
craig+babybear

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Just read on sky, sad sad news , you should never go to watch a game and never come back...
craig+babybear

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19 Jun 2012 22:54:18
hi people,quick question.got the new top today as a bday present from the wife(thank you)whats the hampden roar with it?umbro sticking with us?new name?any constructive answers welcomed,thanks!

Believable3 Unbelievable0

19 Jun 2012 22:40:22
was just wonderin ed if rangers were to move down to the scottish third division, surely all the sponsors like tennents etc wont want to carry on their sponsorship?? {Ed001's Note - that would be a very likely issue.}

Believable3 Unbelievable1

I personally think we will still have same sponsers etc even in 3rd div , we still have a massive fanbase and sponsers know that although if we could get adidas on board for a top for next season id be happy...
craig+babybear

Agree1 Disagree2

We'll end up sponsored by Navid's Minimart of Craiglang.

Agree2 Disagree0

 
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