Rangers Banter Archive January 29 2013

29 Jan 2013 14:04:14
I believe any repercussions would be classed as a 'footballing debt' which Rangers would need to pay as part of the agreement to acquire the Rangers PLC (in liquidation) league membership. In this sense they can be punished. I'm not sure what Jabba is jibbering about though. Why would fans of a new football club be upset about titles being stripped from a club that already spectacularly collapsed anyway? Those payments were deliberately masked for the purposes of tax mitigation (arguably evasion if you ask HMRC) and it is not just paperwork 'not properly filed'. They sought to push the rules to the limit to get a better team on the park. They broke (not bent) this rule in the process. Go fetch a cup of tea Lord Nimmo, I'll take it from here.

The gers would have won those flags without ebts

Never mind asking HMRC, they were wrong. If anybody can tell me what EBTs had to do with Scott McDonald scoring two in the last minutes. This whole thing is nothing but a witch hunt that's all.

What a load of old claptrap this whole story is. Rangers would have won all the titles they won regardless of what method they used to pay their players, so all this S**** being bandied around by Rangers haters has absolutely credibility at all. Had they paid their players an even higher salary to allow for tax, then they would still be champions. Celtic fans in particular are just desperate to see Rangers stripped of titles so they can catch up. The rules of the SPL & SFA are a joke anyway. What about Google and Starbucks paying virtually no tax in the UK. What are we going to do to them - remove Google from our computers? Grow up all you sad, sad people who keep harping on about this. Rangers WON the Big Tax case. Get over it. We've still won 54 and counting.

Did a team not get thrown out the Scottish Cup for not filling out the date twice? I think they were fined 25% of their annual turnover.If found guilty rangers could face a heavy fine but that rangers are defunct, so who will get punished? This is the reason for the title stripping.

@3 what a joke! You can't compare a sporting club who agrees to fully agrees to the rules and to disclose every payment to a billion dollar company who has a bunch of lawyers and who knows what else, they face legal action to law only. You agree to the rules so the football association can decid the punishment and stripping is part of it. Why don't you use sports against sports in your argument? You can't because you know the outcome like Armstrong being stripped and band from that sport. How can all this be a witch hunt when there is clear evedence which your own club admitted to and by the way you haven't won the big tax case yet, but the media rangers lovers have had you think that. Players win the games yes but never planing To pay the clubs where these players came from and to hide payments using side letters is against the rules. It hurts you to know that you may be stripped and so are many others so you make up all this stupid things like witch hunt kick us bla bla. Wake up your former club didn't go into Liqudation for no reason and the investigation is going on for no reason, ogilvy will prob help yous out in all this like he has in the pass, conflict of interest yet still remains involved... Now that's fishy

There seems to be a lot of confusion between rangers use of ebts, and google, Starbucks etc paying pennies in tax. Starbucks etc pay paye contributions and national insurance, it is corporation tax they are fiddling.
Rangers fiddled the paye

@1, that's like saying to a card cheat, oh youd have probably got 4 aces, keep the money.

#6 and others. EBTs are not illegal muppets. The glorious SPL/SFA are desperately scraping around to see if a rule or two has been broken, like a Sunday morning team fielding a player who wasn't signed. I think you'll find many, many sportspeople have been paid in a variety of ways to minimise tax liabilities. This world is full of hypocrites and most of them post on here and in newspaper forums jumping on the anti-Rangers bandwagon.

Why are Celtic fans being so high and mighty about this? Yes Rangers used EBTs but so did your lot!
It has been proven that you signed Juninho using this scheme. If your lots hands were clean then I could understand the criticism. But as it stands, this cry for title stripping reeks of sheer desperation.
It is a scheme that we both used and a scheme we have both been cleared of using. Rangers by an independent panel set up by HMRC and Celtic by a behind closed doors, anonymous, god knows who, incompetent, biased bunch of ring pieces at the SFA.
And if using this scheme gives the team using it such an unfair advantage on the pitch? Then how come all your mob managed to win was a dodgy Scottish cup in 04-05? And surely we should be looking into stripping that as well according to your moral high ground?
Dunc.

When will you wise up ebt's are not the problem its the way you used double contracts .what bit can you not get your head round?...col

@9 I think the only thing that reaks of desperation is the lack of an argument defending your team for cheating!
You need to get your head out of the sand and listen to what the Celtic supporters are saying, juninho was the only player on an EBT! Celtic declared this to the authorities and even cleared it with paying the money to paye and hmrc!!
But your pathetic rant just goes on and on, "Celtic did it once, but we did loads more than they did but we are getting done for it!"
What a tool you are!!
NaCS

@3 Celtic fans do not want Celtic to be awarded the striped titles we just want for justice to be done.

@9; Brian Quinn recognised that the use of an EBT might cause tax problems and recommended Celtic scrap it.They did, paid the back tax and were cleared.Get it right and stop listening to inaccurate gossip.

@11 you really are a plonker"we only did it once"what age are you?Whether its once or a hundred times it don't matter you still did it, and yeah sure you paid the cash back but over two years in instalments whatsthatball about.one deal for Celtic and one for the rest of us.person

@13 you still used them.

@14, 13, ya we used them, we are not saying any different. They are legal if you use them rightly which yous have said before and we all agree. However be difference is that to Celtic it was too fishy and so we paid it back(dosent matter if it was in instulments) and did it in full by going to them and finding out it is better to pay it off. Yous on the other hand have not paid anything(can you argue that?) and had over 50 players and managers on it which totals a hell of a lot more then one person. How can you argue that paying it off is the same as not paying it off?
And the biggest difference is that we went to them to pay it off because we didn't want to take the risk where as yous took the risk and they came to you demanding it meaning that there is a call for an investigation into it add to that it wasn't just one person but many which total millions.

The spl knew rangers wer using ebt's it was legal and if the gers get stripped of titles then there should be an investigation into every team in the spl coz giving players free cars and houses could be seen as tax avoidance so roll on next week and get this sorted {The Ed039's Note - Worst post I have ever seen. Clubs all over the world offer players houses and cars as sweetners and have done for years. Look at Rangers with Fleck, they looked after him and his family to get him to sign. Also Chelsea do it with their youngsters from abroad, they get them houses and bring their families across to live with them)

@16 so how many ebt's wer not deemed as loans since you no so much

@2. the match with motherwell was just one of 36 played. although it seems like that was the crucial result it wasnt. all points dropped or gained were crucial. the point here is that the players with ebts were using them to boost their take home pay. this enabled rangers to put players on the park who would have been elsewhere without the ebt. the rules are clear. all payments must be declared. that's how simple it all is. if ebt was declared in the contract it would be void as a tax free payment. its a catch 22. rangers knew this but did it anyway. as soon as celtic realised the juninho problem, they put it right. it looks as though juninho was payed an ebt by other clubs in england. rangers have been very quiet on the fact that there had to be a similar scandal in england. maybe they don't want to look like grasses. the whole thing stinks and the hard working, tax paying fan has basically had the p1ss taken out of him by millionairres. don't know where to start with whyte. at the end of the day the country has lost tens of millions of pounds. {The Ed039's Note - If it is as simple as you say it is, then why the need for an enquiry, same as the FTTT you and plenty other seem to be assuming guilt until innocence is proven which is extremely arrogant on your part)

Not trying to be arrogant ed. just calling it like I see it. the fact is all the power in football clubs is outwith the fans reach. the former directors of rangers made a decision to put, what was obviously wages money, out of the taxmans reach which has backfired. if there had been more accountability they might have been questioned. people outside the club were asking questions but were not listened to. these decisions cost the country money and the very existence of rangers as they were.

@20 just like arsenal did except theirs was over 300 mill an taxman excepted 11 million but chased rangers until they shut them down an to make matters worse they lost the case and brought rangers down in process wers the justice in that

@17 @eds comment sweeteners or gifts or tax free payments to sign for the club you don't get anything for nothing image rites are another wae of backhand payments {The Ed039's Note - There are plenty ways, and there always will be)

29 Jan 2013 13:35:05
EBT hearing taking evidence today. Think its clear cut on the fttt tribunal payments that HMRC won on as taxable. On the other payments SDM won on (now being appealed by HMRC) could still be regarded as PAYMENTS also which need to be registered with SPL and SFA. Loan Payments are also PAYMENTS. What do people think? And does it matter are we fussed?

Green for all his huff and puff doesn't appear to be any use at all on the important issues. Leaving it to the fans to finance this. I'm presuming as with EBTs he thinks its SDMs issue from oldco days.

The EBT deals were negotiated by players and their agents before signing contracts with the club. The system was described by some former players.
The tv programme showed all the evidence and all the users on the wall of shame. Ally was shown on the wall three times.

@1 queue the sound of broken glass in realization lol

Naw the guy af the tv said that what player has said his ebt was part of his wages please tell since your so informative

29 Jan 2013 13:06:17
Lord Nimmo Smith's investigation into alleged breaches of Scottish Premier League rules by Rangers in the registration of players has commenced.

The case, which will be held in the SPL's offices at Hampden Park but will exist INDEPENDENTLY of the league body, will review whether the club failed to correctly lodge all details of payments for playing activities made to players between 2000 and 2011.

My first question is how can this "exist independently" of the league body if it is the SPL who have brought the case, the SPL have appointed the adjudicators and the SPL have appointed the prosecution. what is independent about that?

second question apparently there are 18 possible sanctions that can be taken if (seems like its already decided) found to be proven, why then is title stripping being automatically assumed by all outside rangers, as the sanction that will be handed down?

JG

Who should have appointed the panel then so it was independent?

Many organisations bring in and pay for independent experts/ investigators.
They remain honest with integrity and independent even though they are paid by the initiating body.
The issue of wrongful registration of players to the average Joe public looks quite clear cut. Payments were made via written negotiated arrangements agreed prior to sign up but not disclosed to SPL. It's more complex than that, but not too complex. The tribunal should honestly get to the bottom of it. I don't think there's an agenda against rangers. There is a very clear cut case to answer.

The title-stripping scenario is only important to Rangers and Celtic supporters - most supporters of the other 40 clubs don't give a monkey's . As to the investigation itself, if you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear . How things have changed since Charles Green was very humble in accepting admittance into ANY league to play football, given that the actions of the previous owner on behalf of Rangers were deemed to be just short of match-fixing.As you say, the range of sanctions goes from a slap on the wrist to expulsion from the game and it will be up to the panel to decide if there is guilt and, if so, recommend the sanction to be imposed. To suggest that the panel is compromised is nothing short of paranoia .Before anybody mentions the "illegal" transfer ban, no laws were broken- all that happened was that the tribunal imposed a sanction that wasn't stipulated in the rules, Rangers lawyers pointed this out and the matter was sent back to the tribunal for reconsideration.
Some people on both interested sides seem to be whipping their fans into hysteria . This may be because the whole landscape of Scottish football is evolving and agendas have to be driven but this isn't really helping- more like polarising positions. let the panel finish its deliberations, look at the judgement and react accordingly rather than view things from an entrenched position.

Paddy Malarkey

Nobody is assuming that title stripping will be the outset of all this, it is the mindset of those wishing us Ill and some of our own support seem to think this will happen. Do you think the top legal brains in Scotland are going to be pushed into making decisions that are corrupt? Don't think so. There are doubters on our side also is it because they believe we were in the wrong. When the truth becomes clear justice will be done and if it is proved were wrong we have to live with it. Don't forget it was the old clubs board which has brought about this furore they would be the guilty party, how it will all pan out remains to be seen. The RFF are funding the lawyers to fight Rangers cause not Green, he should stay out of it as he only inflames matters. Saying that I hope it has a happy outcome for our club but wouldn't bet on it happening.
Bobby

The proper sanction should guilt be proven is expulsion from the game. Should that be the required penalty I think the SFA on appeal will just strip the titles and fine the club the amount of prize money they won. This of course is predicated on a gulity verdict which is not certain by any means.

Sfa should have appointed panel, not liewell the celtic lawyers and the corrupt spl board.

@1 who appoints ANY independent inquiry into anything ? A person or persons who does not have links to either party.

Because of all the 11 years and all the dozens upon dozens of players involved. Because of what has been shown in the media so far and discussed online, the side letters, the employment negotiations with agents, etc, .... The majority of fans believe the rules were broken based on the understanding of the rules. Given a wrong registered player defaults every game, and whole rangers teams were proven to be on EBTs, fans fear loss of titles.

@8 the idea that lawell is some kind of malevolent power appointing the panel is laughable, grow up this has nothing to do with PL
DB77

If theses ebt 'loans' are proven to be kosher then why were rangers the only team to use them? and why isn't every team worldwide dodging tax to get better players? {Ed001's Note - loads were and they do, as do just about every corporation. That is an ignorant comment, fair play.}

Paddy "if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear" what planet are you on pal? What a naive and stupid comment to post. Are you telling us that innocent people have never been convicted? If you think that then you are even more stupid than I gave you credit for

@11) Celtic declared juninho EBT to SFA and SPL, paid his outstanding NI and PAYE, at the time and became clean knowing it was wrong and shouldn't be done. Rangers continued to do it for 47 players over 11 years.

@10. There were only five players who were not revealed to the authorities. The popular opinion which appears to be gathering pace is that this was more of an administrative error as opposed to fraud "cheating" or any other descriptive propaganda those who still wish us harm would have us believe. HMRC have questions to answer, like how they allowed this to allegedly run for eleven years. There will be no title stripping. IF... Rangers are to be pursued further it will be by way of fine or financial penalty only. A minor misdemeanor . Dry your eyes "Rangers haters" your hopes and dreams fuelled entirely by hearssay lies and vindictive propaganda are about to be totally deflated. P.O.B.

@12 Smeltic paid the tax and ni on that ebt some 4 yrs after he had left!. They operated the ebt wrongly and paid tax and ni after the event. If they hadn't found out about the ebt they wouldn't have paid the tax and ni.

Fellow gers I would not worry about the anti rangers media sensationalising regarding removal of titles. this will never happen. because they don't have the cahonies to do it. why? because if they do all the former board, managers, players will sue the pants of them for deformation of character. you think these lads will sit back and take that nonsense when it will remove medals from there mantelpiece and titles from there cv's . I think not . it would drag on for years, they will be sued for millions. as a result this, like the big tax case, will be brushed under the carpet. these people love one thing more than there witch hunt of rangers, and that's ther baw bees. as usual its a waste of time, flannel, bit like scottish football in general

Doesn't mean if its 1 player or 47 players Celtic still used EPTs.

29 Jan 2013 06:39:41
Question rather than banter.

What do all of you expect Rangers & CG to do if the proposed restructuring of the leagues go ahead as expect.

Will Rangers accept the change & move on and challange for promotion in 2013/14.

Will Rangers attempt to take the matter to court, albie against the rules of EUFA.

Will Rangers resign their Associate Membership of the SFA & attempt to play in another league or country.

Views from all supporters groups are welcome.

Timmie Goa.

29 Jan 2013 11:33:18
i would expect rangers to go to court as the SFL rule book states that any team winning their prospective leagues will be promoted regardless of reconstruction. Remembering this happened to stranraer!

Rangers would have to accept the majority decision or go out of business they would have no choice. They would be still be league champions, the old 3rd division as we know it would be defunct, and whether we like it or not we would have to move on. At the end of the day that's where lots of our fans wanted us to be after the shenanigans of last year.
Bobby

OP in answer to your questions
1, Yes
2, No
3, No

My view is that the scottish football authorities are a complete shambles, we are just over 6 months from the start of a new season and no one knows how the leagues will be formed yet, to quote a phrase - shocking, shocking absolutely shocking, shocking

JG

@ 2 if when rangers win the league the will be in the 3rd tier next year so no rules will be broken, it just means the other teams from the 4th tier will be there too, in essence the whole league will be promoted.
DB77

If it goes ahead Rangers fans should boycott all away games, just go to Ibrox, not watch games on ESPN and watch the SPL/SFL whatever it will now be called die due to a lack of money. This new set up will not make teams blood younsters as they will be afraid to be in the bottom 4, it is a backwards step, that is why Austria and Switzerland binned it

The Stranraer case was different as they moved up because of the numbers involved in restructuring.

Anyway, Rangers are in the 4th tier and reconstruction will mean they'll be in the 3rd tier.

They won't do anything. They will huff and puff in the media an that's it. Going to court costs money and they don't have any. They will be promoted for winning the leauge! But all others will be promoted too. 4th teir this year 3rd teir next = promotion.

It doesn't say in the rules specifically that any team winning promotion will be promoted "regardless of reconstruction". Your adding the last bit on mate. Go and read the rules again.

I don't see what the problem is anyway. You wanted 3rd division, you knew it would be 2015/16 before it was back to the top division, it still will be after reconstruction.

No promotion means the sfa should give the fans the season money back you can't have a league with no end product

@4 No it would mean that teams in the second bottom tier of Scottish football would now be in the bottom tier and the team that wins the bottom tier league gets promoted to--- well, the bottom tier meaning that this season is a complete waste of time. there are too many teams with vested interest in Rangers staying where they are to make the vote on Thursday a sporting vote.

4, 6, 7) rangers are in the bottom tier of scottish football if they win that and reconstruction happens they will still be in the bottom tier of scottish football, so they won't be promoted.

Blueice

@10 it would mean that teams in the bottom half of 3rd tier would next year be in the 3rd tier as they would be without change, the only team complaining about this is rangers who are only associate members so don't have a say anyway, if the restructure had fast tracked rangers how many of you would be worried about other teams being treated unfairly. you still have your first trophy to play for so the season won't be wasted,
DB77

@5. and also wear special blinkers so as not to see sponsors ads. don't watch the news or anything that may contain scottish football clips. in fact just live in ibrox forever.

The rangers case lacks logic. if the clubs above are so desperate for their money why are they voting to give that money to the current div 3 clubs again ? you will have 6 new teams to play next year, which is more than youve ever had before. if the system had stayed the same you would have had 10 new teams to play, so youre only losing 4 of them. I don't think there's much of a loss at all. besides lee mculloch said the standard is the same as the spl anyway.

@12 You really and honestly don't see anything wrong with moving the goalposts half way throughout the season? If the top of the SPL were to split half way through the season because of some lunatics vision for Scottish football and the top six all started on 0 points again would the celtic fans not be up in arms?

28 Jan 2013 23:34:22
Brian Laudrup in talks to become an ambassador for the club. Is this the beginning of the end for Ally?

Brian Laudrup should be Head Coach & Cheif Scout. That'd be better than being an Ambassador for our club! In my oppinion mates.
Kelpie

I think Laudrup has said before he is not really interested in management.

I do hope its the end for Ally, but I'm not sure about Laudrup managing, I don't want another one of my heroes falling off their pedestal, surely we need a proven manager who can get the best out of the players we've got and calibre we can get in.

28 Jan 2013 21:35:07
Hi Ed and all fans,

Just wanted to know what peoples views were on the proposed new league format or 12-12-18?

Would be interesting to hear all fans views. Especially those of SFL teams

What do you think?

Jay

Nobody's views matter.
Every club in fourth tier gets a step up to third tier next year and have to play all same teams again.

Sadly there is no league reconstruction that can bring out fans to watch the likes of Caley versus St Mirren or Motherwell versus Dundee. Fact.

@2 let see how many turn up St Mirren V ITC. I'd guess around 4,000 even for the mid week game.

It will make it virtually impossible to sign decent foreign players, so we should concentrate on young homegrown players, although I have sneaky suspicion McCoist will waste what ever he is given on dross like Kyle, Cribari, Ortiz etc, if he's still in the job.