Rangers Banter Archive October 04 2013

04 Oct 2013 23:32:54
Who to believe?

Rangers say they are "appalled and saddened at the current demeanour" of Malcolm Murray after the former club chairman rejected a claim he approved much-criticised salaries at Ibrox.
Murray described as "misleading and vexatious" the suggestion that he had sanctioned substantial pay-outs.
But the club insist Murray "agreed" payments to Brian Stockbridge and former chief executive Charles Green.
And Rangers say Murray "signed off" Green's compromise agreement.

As well as challenging Murray's assertions over payments, Rangers described the former chairman's claim that he was appointed by institutions to oversee corporate governance as "grossly inaccurate".

And the club insist it was Murray who proposed current chief executive Craig Mather to the board after Murray had said: "Mather was proposed by Charles Green and rejected by me and two other board member. "

Will we ever know

With so much sh1t flying - mainly directed by the spiteful PR companies - no one will get out clean

.

@ op this board have certainly got something to hide trying to block the shareholders votes and anybody who speaks out about what they think is going on this board use tactics of trying to discredit whoever speaks out also something I find really interesting is why put mccoists wages in the accounts when it's never been done before I think it's just another underhand tactic that this board seem to keep coming up with also if I remember right Mather came out and said they made an agreement. with the requisitioners that they would combine the egm and the agm together to save money

Op has he denied that

Mr Murray was appointed by Charles Green on June 14 2012 to Sevco Scotland (now Rangers Football Club Ltd). There were no institutions in the Club then. The Club IPO was on December 19 2012 so it is grossly inaccurate to say Mr Murray was put there by said institutions to oversee corporate governance.
Mr Murray proposed Craig Mather to the board.
Mr Murray agreed Brian Stockbridge’s salary and bonus.
Mr Murray agreed Mr Green’s salary and bonus.
Mr Murray negotiated Mr Green’s compromise agreement and signed it off.
Mr Murray was removed from the Pinsent Masons investigation by the board after leaking information to a third party.

JG

@3 aye cause every statement rangers release is the gods honest truth aye right mm is getting slated off this board if this board are doing nothing wrong and everything that people are saying is lies why don't they sue for slander because they know and you really know deep down there up to their neck in it

@4 he was there before the ipo, that is indisputable, green brought him in, he was part of the board when contracts were agreed
I asked a question, I never gave an opinion either for or against again I will ask has he denied any of the above or did he just say wasntme?

JG

@4 you answered your own question if Murray said it wasn't him then he's denying it

04 Oct 2013 17:59:32
Like to thank mccoist for cancelling the dunfermline gamectalk about makibg money he's just cost a fortune from 5. 30 kick to a midweek kickoff half empty stadium wit a dick.

04 Oct 2013 21:02:14
tbh I thought ally would want to keep the momentum going after 8-0. His paymaster pals on the board must've disagreed.

Ridiculous op. Have you not got anything better to do in life than post such drivel? Are you running. out of things to. blame mccoist for? How about the AIDS epidemic or recession or housing shortage?. Get a life. Its common practice for clubs with international players to postpone fixtures. It's a club decision not a manager's alone.

05 Oct 2013 00:37:53
Ally had no time to make the decision, he was too busy counting his money!

05 Oct 2013 09:03:53
I think most fans have still to realise the level of scandal that Ally was on over £800k a year. that's a HUGE salary in any game. He "wasnt aware". What an insult to our inteligence. This guy is a liar, plain and simple, relying on our good will to get away with it. that's called taking the p#ss, and that's how history will judge him. Anyone who sticks up for him is just a weakling who would rather swallow actual dog cr#p than believe an obvious truth that our club is being r#ped in open air by a "legend".

I am disappointed about the Dunfermline call off as I was taking my 2 kids to the game and they now cannot make the rearranged date.
I understand the rule but noticed this quote from Mr. McCoist in a paper -

"You then open up the argument that we should be able to beat so and so with the squad we have got; I can understand that. But can you imagine the press conference we would be having if Dunfermline beat us 2-0 at Ibrox and we were without eight players? You would, quite rightly, be asking me if I was doing my job correctly. "

8 players? All i've seen is 3 players and 2 on stand by, making 5 in total. Where does he get 8 from? {The Ed039's Note - he will be counting Scotland u19s, ie Barrie McKay)

04 Oct 2013 13:30:49
Am I right in saying that the next home game is not till 9th November (Airdrie) after the Dunfermline game was moved.

5 weeks without a home game?

Playing Dunfemline at home 6th November and possibly in the Scottish cup if we get a home draw

Real drain on cash flow - robbing club of needed income from walk ups, hospitality, food sales, programmes ect

,

04 Oct 2013 10:45:19
I would like to get this off my chest as I can't take much more of the negativity that is constantly posted on here
Things are bad right now but things could have been a lot worse. I think that some bears on here actually forget where we were on the 1st day of November 2012. The fact that we can still go to and watch the Rangers play football and in an Ibrox stadium still owned by us, is for now the main factor in all of this train crash which has been going on around us for several years.
Green and Co saw us lying across a table with a large jar of Vaseline at our side and saw a huge investment opportunity with potential huge returns for them. They bought the assets, kept the club going, turned the company into public ownership and the rest is history. Now they are the villains because some have rode off into the sunset with full pockets (on a lot of horses as well) sorry bears but for me that is business and nothing to do with loyalty to Rangers
Many other institutional investors have also invested through the IPO with a long term plan to get a return on their investment
A question which has been on my mind for a long time though is - If that investment opportunity was there, why was it only a group of businessmen with no affiliation to the club, who took it? Blue knights, McColl, King, Park, P Murray, you name them all made lots of noise but in the end they backed off, Why if they were and supposedly still are so intent on saving the club? We were not talking huge sums of money here 6-8M would have scared off Green, Even until now only the Easdales and Prior have taken up the opportunity to invest with the purchase of Ahmed and Green's shares, but they too have also come in for criticism, Why?
Now please don't tell me that this great plan to drive the company under and resurrect a new company was hatched years ago by all the parties involved, also don't tell me that D&P made Green and co the preferred bidders thus excluded all others, you may or may not know that preferred bidder status is not legally binding and can be challenged, why did the names above never make a serious challenge?
Could it be that this investment was not without substantial risk with all the unknowns regarding the BTC, membership of SFA, claims against the club, etc, etc? could well be, who knows? but for some reason the "rangers men" still hold back and appear to want to run the club but without putting any investment in.
Looking forward, Lots of money wwas taken out of the company, but lots of expenses were one off cases, If we get expenditure under control and particularly wages both playing but especially non playing then with a customer base of 40-45k every second weekend and thousands of others looking for rangers merchandise, then there is a very viable business there and no reason we should ever go bust again
Bring on the AGM and let's see what comes out of that

Ok got it off my chest
Lets discuss in an grown up manner please

JG

@op some good points but green was always going to be preferred over anybody to get rangers hence the reason whyte is challenging saying he was still part of it and if I remember right the blue knights had a late offer rejected and they wer offering more than green

King was engaged in a long running tax battle with the South African authorities at the time and couldn't commit any cash. He had already put a considerable amount of cash into the club previously and has stated he would be willing to do the same if things change. He should be invited onto the board in a prominent role

I agree entirely JG, from where we were to these accounts is quite remarkable. Yes they have been well re-imbursed for the chance they took but risk money is costly.
I tried to post something similar but good on you for getting it spot on.
Now with some good financial management we will eradicate the debris that murray left.
billyb.

Valid points JG, here's my tuppence for what it's worth.
To me most of your points surround the 'where were the Rangers men when they had a chance to invest?' question?
If I'm correct then my answer is this. They didn't have the stomach for it.
Not because they are poor businessmen and not because there's not money to be made because clearly there is. However, look at the methods used by those who did invest to make this money. These methods are purely about making money and nothing to do with saving Rangers at all. In order to make money out of this club you have to be unattached emotionally, ruthless and have not a care at all for traditions, history, fans opinion etc.
On the other hand, if your investment is simply to save a footballing institution that you love then that takes away the ability to make money from it. In short, McColl etc are businessmen but Rangers supporters too. I doubt very much if any of them would want to be associated with what's been done to our club. The very reason I think David Murray sold in the first place. I'd argue that he knew what route had to be taken (liquidation) and after years of glory he wanted no part of that so he sold to a man who would happily be the face of this and who had no reason to care.
The money has been made through propeganda and taking advantage of fan loyalty. If your not prepared to do this then you've no chance of making money out of a football club, any football club, especially one in an environment where there is very little investment anyway (Scottish football).
Just one other point, what makes you think Ibrox is owned by us?
Not being cheeky mate, just a question.

Have said since the debacle began that Blue Knights etc, etc, were all mouth saying all the things that punters wanted to hear, but unwilling to get their cash out.

@ baybear dermot Desmonds a celtic fan and am sure he gets a few mill off celtic each season

@ OP you will have to excuse me but why the 1st November 2012- I've forgotten the significance of that date?
The admin announcement, the D and P months etc the liquidation and the final agreement to give a qualified license after last season had started but I genuinely have forgotten what happened on the 1st November?
But yes I agree we are still here and we know it's a long haul with a lot more bumps and bruises ahead but we have a team on the park to support so hey ho that will have to do us at the moment.

How were the blue knights, rangers men, et al only emotionally involved with saving history, culture, achievements? When they done nothing to save any of that. Absolutely nothing.
They are jealous bystanders who have tried every dirty trick in the book, including using red top rags like today, to gain power over the guys who put their own money in. Rangers fans are mugs if they support the likes of p Murray. He sank the club with SDM ffs.

You work away all your life till ill health comes knocking your paid off
you get on with life its hard
you need money, you ask the provy wuman fur a loan even she says no
but you know someone who does
its a guy called. let's say wonga
you ask round your friends and family
and get back on your feet
but mr wonga knew the position you were in and was, nt very nice to you you never forgave him for that
so at the first oppurtunity you say I need to get mr wonga of my back
this you do. and we all live happily ever after

Thank god Craig Whyte found green and brought him to D&P to buy assets and keep it all going cause rangers men did squat. Whyte could have just walked away at that point. If it went into admin now, p Murray would be voicing off with no money as usual but looking for the big 400k job. P Murray could never have managed a Plc share issue with London brokers.
Stockbridges 200k salary and bonus is peanuts for what he's done. It's less thanvalastair Johnston or Martin bain took. And mathers is cheapest CEO in over a decade.

What's with all the talk about wonga have I missed something

@OP I think your points are spot on and provide a balanced realistic view of exactly what has happened to us over the last 18 months.

However, our continued lack of action as a collective group of fans sends a message to all the opportunists that we will continue to bank role their aspirations of greed. We have been let down and mislead through lack of information from two separate groups of custodians two years running. Are we really going to accept this happening for a 3rd year. Our lack of action only endorses what these people are doing to the us and using our club as the vehicle.

Regardless what Kieren Prior says, there has been a very clever and effective conjuring act to the tune of between £10 - £16m of value in the accounts to allow this money to be paid back out to parties and services not disclosed. While this may not be legally corrupt it is definitely morally corrupt.

This is not what Rangers is supposed to stand for and if we allow it to continue then we only have our selves to balms. Don't forget all analysts have stated that we need fresh investment within a year from now. The value of every ones shares get diluted not inflated. It will rake 15 years for Rangers to return comparable revenues to our previous and what investors other than fans are happy to wait this length of time.

Big George is right and we should vote with our feet until the board is replaced with people who have no connection to past regimes.

45,000 Rangers fans turning up for a home game hold the real power here.

N. o 10 am I getting you right here are you arguing which fat cat is the slimmest here. Murrays fat cat or greens fat cat. but the bottom line is they all give us platitudes and sound bites. but all roads lead to a big chateau in france
wither it be Murray or green
were left here frustrated and saddend
there in france toastin there baws

As I previously stated. mr prior & the board have stated "audited accounts are not as bad as anticipated. They MUST say this. So more investment comes in in next few months. The truth would frighten anyone away. Ooooh & look. Ally has taken a 50% pay cut. Admirable of him eh?. They have, & still ate lying to faithful fans. Soooo much money unaccounted for. too much cover up.
Not good
Not good business etgics
Transparency
Truth
Where is the money?.
Who is putting up the 2.5mil overdraft. because its not the bank.

@8 SPOT ON

N12 I agree wholeheartedly with you I've been posting on here since season began avoid ibrox like the plague that way we will get this lot out we can get a new board and follow on this lot can't get knew supporters to follow them

Thanks for all the grown up responses bears,

for me there are now two big dates coming up

1, the agm, (it must be held within 5 months after end of financial year)after that the board, whoever is elected, should be given a clear message from the shareholders and the fans that they must be up to the task ahead which is to turn the company back into the black
2, the interim accounts which are due for the six months 30 June to 31 december, and should be published around march,
these will tell us if we are turning the corner and cutting the losses, or if the board are still only in it for the money, let's hope its the first of those

I don't agree that not going to games and buy merchandise is going to help in any way, that will only make things worse but it is the individuals right to choose, personally I have very limited chances to get to games now but I do have my season tkt for rangers tv and I would never think about missing a game, its still the highlight of my week

JG

04 Oct 2013 10:28:28
a quick question did the Pompey fans not go to court to stop their stadium being sold and if so could we not do the same thing thanks

Op - this is one for baybears missus but I think they were in court to determine the value of the stadium as they attempt to buy it back from the previous owner Balram Chainrai, they offered 3m he wanted 12m


JG

04 Oct 2013 00:25:50
Is it a matter of coincidence that we find the wages that McCoist is on are rather hefty. If you guys think back to last June, it was mentioned that McCoist and his back room team were working without a contract. Along comes Mr Green, says "Ally, if you endorse the season ticket sales and endorse me as a trustworthy character" then you will receive a bumper contract. Not enough. ok how about you get offered the chance to buy shares in the club at £0. 01p as well. McCoist then goes on to make the statement that he is buying the shares as a fan and not as the rangers manager. Really Ally. fans bought in at 78p per share. Conclusion. Ally McCoist, rangers man or not is there primarily to line his own nest and think of the club second. Do you realise that nearly £2, 400 seasons tickets must be sold per year to make up Ally's salary.

04 Oct 2013 00:52:37
As one journalist said tonight on the radio Ally's wages was money well spent as far as Chuckie Green was concerned. No Ally backing season tickets last year no fancy chateau in France today for Chuckie.

Come on gents give Ally a break, newspaper today saying he has agreed to reduce to £400k a year. Let's be fair how would you like to try and manage on that.

@2 400k a year I wouldn't get out of bed for that

@2 Too little too late, damage to his reputation has been done, he is viewed as the rest a pig feeding from the trough. They are no better than the bankers

@4 spot on mate Ally is no better than the other spivs that have bled the club dry. Also he still has the shares he got for 1p each. No matter how some people try and dress it up Ally has made a fortune out of the club, a club struggling to survive. To me that's not the actions of a fan

Takes a lot of arm folding for 400k

Ally was TUPE across from Oldco, so he did have an employment contract last June.

04 Oct 2013 13:35:35
You just know Media House have advised Ally he should take the cut for the sake of his rep. Funny how he agress to pay cut just after accounts and before AGM.

7 - I think you'll find that Ally McCoist made a statement in the press at the time (circa May - June 2012) that he and his backroom staff were working without a contract. No contract. no TUPE! Simple. His argument that he signed a contract at the beginning and this has ran throughout until now completely flies in the face of this statement. It's not like Ally though eh to say one thing and then contradict it though is it?

"We're building a team for the cups" Rangers put out of the cups. "The league is more important the cups don't matter"! Doh!

Fair enough he's taken a pay cut, but £420 k per year is still a hell of a big pay packet for what he's doing.