05 Dec 2013 14:50:24
ED039/George and any other interested fan wanting a serious debate on your club.
As we saw last Sunday Hearts were well beaten by a more experienced Celtic team, but in a way I applaud their club's board for trying to keep club alive, but now live within their means. Their pay structure is one of the lowest in the SPFL thus they have to play the young kids. Sadly this inevitably means taking beatings like last Sunday but in the long term Hearts will come back a leaner but stronger football club on and off the park.
Contrast that to RFC whose wage bill is only beaten by Celtic's. There are no signs of anyone in power at Ibrox now (or hoping to be in power) looking at such stringent wage cuts. On the contrary your manager is already talking about spending money on players in January (money he apparently does not even have) All we ever hear from your club is "we need more money/investment" not about developing a proper financial strategy to keep your club not only free from debt but making a profit in the future.
Here is a question for you all to ponder, would Rangers fans get behind a team of young talented but inexperienced players, like Hearts, and could you all stomach the inevitable beatings along the way until you regroup? Timalloy
{Ed039's Note - this has been disussed many times and the feeling is youngsters and journeymen should have been the way forward AND been good enough to win consecutive promotions while stock piling cash ready for an assault on the prem, there isnt really a debate to be had, the business plan is all wrong)
Timalloy,
We all know what should have been done. The problem stems from the crooks who took the club into administration. We are where we are, and it will take time until the dust settles properly. I personally believe more youngsters should be given their chance.
Hearts look like they will be allowed to weather the storm of administration, HMRC made sure we could not, it backfired on them.
Timalloy.
No they would not have stood by the team if the team had failed to come right back through the leagues. They say that's what they wanted but look at the grief they give ally the now even though he is winning. Could you imagine the names they would be calling him then. In reality a club our size has to come back up as fast as possible. Could you imagine the financial disaster had we spent two seasons in league 2 and 1 then 3 or 4 in the championship. If that did happen I don't think would ever have got back to where we once were. Yes hearts have no choice but to go the route they are going. But ultimately they are going to be relegated and I think it will take them at least 4/5 seasons to get back up. Also no I would not want to take the heavy beatings either the 3. 0 beating of Dundee united was bad enough to take. As a rangers fan I am used to supporting a winning team and that's the way I want it to continue. PS before anyone calls me a glory hunter I'm not I'm proud of my team and our history and believe we belong at the top of Scottish football because we are the best. And ultimately to achieve that you need the best players and highest wages.
{Ed039's Note - Pat, Ally is getting grief for a whole other bunch of reasons, if you look at my response to OP it included winning but with a totally different game plan)
Timalloy
Exactly what you say should have happened and I honestly think most fans would want that.
But if you find your manger has no skills in that job the only way to get back to the top is buy great players or sack the manager and work with youth and a talented manager.
You can see which way the crooks went. made them millions and they havn't had to lay out much on signings just crazy wages which when you take into account £50m plus missing is a small cost to walk away with new houses in France, Castles in the Highlands and millions in cash bonuses wages and from 1p shares.
Decent honest board would have chosen the youth and sensible wage business model, you can see why the crooks went the other way, they had the bonus of Ally vouching for every one of them if he got his wages, shares and over salaried players.
Me I admire the Hearts but just to play devils advocate and think from the Ally fans perspective. losing 7-0 to Celtic! That and the years of piss taking would be a very hard thing to go through. so I can understand anyone not wanting that.
RTID looking forward to taking our title back in 2 years. nice of you to keep in polished and safe for us. george
Timalloy- I’ve thought about this a lot and in all honesty I’m unsure. We’ve had periods in our history where the fans numbers have dwindled (early to mid 80’s for example). This seems to have been down to poor results, form and general dissatisfaction from the fans. This would suggest that the idea of unconditional commitment might be a bit far-fetched. However, there is no doubt that our recent troubles have fostered a certain defiance or siege mentality within the support. It could be said that this already had an effect with supporters who continued to turn up in droves regardless of the poor football on show for much of last season. That commitment was enough to see us over the line last season although it became clear in the summer that we had no intention of following the prudent youth route; to the dismay of supporters like myself. It’s for this very reason that I did not renew as I am quite frankly disgusted at the direction we are taking as a club. For my own reasons I didn’t feel I could continue to show support to a regime that went against my own ideals. For me to renew would have been hypocritical and I was not prepared to be part of that. Not because I don’t love Rangers but because the Rangers I love were not representing my own morals due to the people at the helm. With that all said it seems clear that I am not representative of the majority of our support with the attendance numbers remaining high. I honestly think that the unfair situation we found ourselves in as supporters has had a major influence on our numbers. I think that had we went the youth route this season and struggled we would still have turned up in numbers, maybe even greater numbers as fans such as myself would still have been going.
Maybe I’m just an idealist and the idea of a longer, dignified youth route was never a realistic option. Not because the support wouldn’t go for it but because the club and others inside the Scottish game were not prepared to wait. As Pat correctly suggests, maybe Rangers are simply too big to be out of the top flight for too long for the sake of Scottish football as a commercial product. The same could be said of Celtic if our fate had befallen them. If this is the case then it is clear to me that the game is indeed ‘a bogey’ so to speak. Our fate as football supporters (regardless which club we follow) is already decided. We are all being used to fund the lifestyles of others and our base level club loyalties are being used against us. Through all of our troubles over the past two years the two things that have become clear to me are (A) It’s in the interests of those in power to keep us divided and arguing amongst ourselves. A divided force is not a force at all. (B) Our opinion matters not a jot.
It was not the players wages that accounted for a 14m loss last year anyone with any sense should be able to see that
Notwithstanding last years financial performance there are 45 k through the gate at every home game, they deserve to see the best players we can possibly have on the park, if we win every game 6-0 so what? we play in the league we are in, does not mean we have to lower our standards to suit that league
If it is so easy to put a team of youngsters together why doesn't every team do it,
Timmy tell me who Celtic have brought through in the last two years?
JG
Baybear.
Exactly we like every other football fan of every club in this country are the least important thing to our boards. Football is a business where the only thing investors care about is money not the fans or the club. As for our current board I don't see us getting rid and even if we do I don't see the murrays as any better. There is no money in Scottish football so why would anyone want to invest. In all honesty the only way rangers can raise cash is through bleeding every last penny out of us fans. In my opinion a club the size of rangers would need 45k supporters paying a £1000 for a season ticket when we get back to the top if we ain't to run up debts again. In my opinion this is a breakdown of the finances rangers would have to pay and possible income.
Income 2mil hospitality.1mil through strip sales. 1. 5 or 900k for finishing 1st or 2nd in top flight. 20mil for 40k season tickets sold at £500. = roughly £24mil income.
Outgoings. Players wages roughly 10 to 12mil if we are to challenge Celtic. Management board members and other employees 4 to 6mil. Stadium maintanence and other bills ie gas and electric etc anywhere between 3 and 6mil. Which= anywhere between17 and 24mil the higher being more likely. Therefore leaving no money spare. PS these are only fictional estimates to get my point across and I am sure someone will come up with far more accurate figures.
@5, jg, anyone with any sense would see that the player wage bill this year is down to £7.8m, so it was a contributary factor. of course, this doesn't include any monies accrued by your beloved mccoist!
Timalloy,
It is amazing how many Celtic fans have become experts in business over the last few years, and you are no exception. Firstly, the Rangers business model ran into problems in its first year due to two reasons, the collapse of JJB and executive remunerations. Rangers were deprived of approx 4 million in commercial revenue and got hit with extortionate management costs of 10 million or so.
The losses in the first year had nothing to do with player wages, even Mr Scrooge CG was happy with a 5 million playing budget, and this year it is 7 million.
Rangers have fixed overheads that demand a certain turnover to keep the lights on, to suggest this turnover could be achieved with a group of kids is living in cloud cuckoo land. Imagine the scenario of a youth team in div 3 with a mothballed MP, non-existent retail sales and a bunch of shareholders determined to milk every last penny out of the club in fees, commissions, salaries and bonuses! Now add Ally and his coaching staff walking out in disgust and no Walter Smith.
What do you think the average crowd would be? How many Rangers fans would have stood behind CG?
There was an internal feud between those interested in short term profits and those with Rangers long term interests, thankfully the latter won. If they had lost the Rangers fans would have done a Leeds and boycotts would have made administration inevitable. It was this threat that forced CG and his short term allies out of Ibrox, and the success or failure of Rangers has never been about a few million extra on players.
Sky/BT give England 1 billion every year, Scotland gets 18 million, how many good young players are going to sign up for any Scottish team on low wages, I suggest none, and I suggest there is no way your business model would have worked.
Hugh - if your right 7.8m out of 19m income is 40%, must be the lowest player wages to income ratio for many many years and a very acceptable ratio, that was my point
i would expect that it will be around the same or even lower ratio for this financial year
dont understand your last point though, can you quote where I expressed my undying love for ally? I have made no comment on that subject - to date,
i did try to explain how he never bought shares for 1p and how he put his own money into the original consortium even before RIFC existed unlike some other well known fans, but it never made it on here?
JG
@ OP you are correct with THE best purpose built youth development facility in Scotland bar none a reasonable man would have reasonably expected that with the policy of Spend for Success adopted by David Murray and his managers so spectacularly failing at least a decent mix of good homegrown youngsters with seasoned professionals should have been the way forward.
By solely using seasoned professionals and ignoring almost entirely the mix of youthful confidence, enthusiasm, absence of fear and sell on value we are again in a massive loss situation.
It cannot be done- really Dundee United- and don't give me your tosh about when did they ever win the Premier League- well they have a damn sight better chance this year than we have. Also they may well be the team to stop Selik they certainly won't fear us with 1- 17 year old more valuable than our entire squad who probably are ALL on higher money than he is. Do you remember the Quality Street Kids OP? Now what did Mr Stein do with them oh yes he played them and they won and won well! You don't win anything with kids- I think you'll find you do- Beckham the Neville Brothers, Nick Butt, Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs anyone?
We got into the current mess by spending money we didn't have unless we embrace the need for the highest quality youth and THEN GIVE THAT Youth the chance we will be back in administration before you can say Awick Ferguson.
How did our scouts not find Russell, Soutar, MacKay-Stevens and Gauld? And yes we did have a scout when United picked these to name but three.
We need two things to happen we need to find the best youngsters about, but then they and their parents need to know they will get a chance at Ibrox in the first team.
If you cannot see that Bears- you have my deepest sympathy and you will be party to another sleep walking disaster for our club. Wakey Wakey!