19 Oct 2012 10:43:39
Nightmare.
Former Rangers owner Craig Whyte is preparing to claim millions of pounds from the remains of the old club that collapsed earlier this year, saying the RFC Group he used to buy the Ibrox outfit held a valid security over the assets sold to Charles Green's Sevco consortium.
Full story: The Herald
D&P messed up? Unwinding the Asset sale via BDO?
What valid reasons could Craig whyte have to claim millions from rangers as he never put any of his own money into rangers just like David Murray the only thing they done was steal from rangers. But just out of interest for what reasons does the herald state
Yet another "timmy " warning comes to pass Whyte is and always has been the only show in town
He is claiming he is a creditor of the old company, wont affect us
It's strictly business don't get emotional.
There's potentially £5m plus a lot more from debtors in the Rangers pot. Whyte does have a valid security over the assets sold to Green. He is now first in line for the money from selling those assets to Green. He can also lodge legal complaint they were sold too cheaply. It's a clear legal issue regardless of where he got the money from to buy the club.
Craigy boy needs to recover £25m to settle with Ticketus.
All he has to do that is his security over the Rangers Assets, which always was his insurance policy. He is now cashing it in.
I feel the sale of assets needs to be unwound to allow them sold at a proper price to settle the Ticketus and other creditor debts.
I was worried when D&P applied with 'urgency' to have Rangers liquidated. Were they aware of a serious issue they stuffed up on? Now we know.
I think D&P and Ahmed/Green tried to shaft Whyte and he's back for his £25m to pay Ticketus.
D&P recently released their end of admin statement saying they achieved their aim of saving the club. This however isn't their primary legal aim. Their aim is to maximise returns for creditors; Whyte, Ticketus, HMRC and 274 others.
This is bad news for creditors of oldco if proven to be the case ..... Ironically it would mean that all the work that the HMRC liquidators BDO carry out chasing assets of oldco will go to Whyte and not creditors of which HMRC is one of the majority - if this is indeed the case it would be in HMRCs interest to stand BDO down as they are just lining the pockets of the guy that robbed them
Whyte clearly tryin to leverige a deel, I'll unwind the asset sale unless Green pays the Ticketus money back over 5 years, cause Green is sitting on my assets for only £2m.
I hardly ever post on this board and most of you are right, a lot of the stuff is utter nonsense and scaremongering by fans of smaller scottish clubs but I fear there may be a bit behind this story- the herald never jumps on tabloid bandwagons.
Strictly speaking I'm a leeds fan but I've lived in ayrshire for 10 years and married into a rangers family, i'll be at the queens game tomorow with my wife and brother in law as i've been to every game this season.
Most of you probably dont know the story behind leeds utd in the mid 2000's but we went through hell thanks to peter ridsdale - who should be in jail as far as i'm concerned. In July 2007 HMRC challenged our cva retrospectively and the walls came crashing in. Just because admin has been woulnd up and a newco formed this process can easily be reversed through the courts if d&p are proved to have acted improperly.
i'm still undecided on charles green but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt but he wont have a leg to stand on if it transpires the assets should not have been sold on. I think as it was rfc things had to happen quckly and the fact that d&p wanted a "quick" liquidation, I fear things may be looking ominous.
Not quite, HMRC are going after Whyte and Murrey for money. If Whyte has no money then they cant get any from him, If he gets say 20 million from a resale of Ibrox assets and then is hit by claims from ticketus for his personal guarentee and HMRC for directors libility for not ensuring Vat and PAYE are paid then he has something to offer.
The legal system will be the ultimate winner in this.
I said two days ago when Whyte raised his head that Rangers were in the hands of carcass feeders squabbling over the bones.
Lord Hodge at the Court of Session must be thumbing his diary for the inevitable case and rulings.
Guys guys guys - come on - they won't unwind the sale - D&P on the rejection of the CVA from creditors then put to the creditors the offers on the table - they voted, HMRC with most influence, to accept the Green consortium offer - that's the way it works and HMRC said as much at the time - remember if Rangers go out of business HMRC are down in excess of £10m per year in tax (and yes it's assuming they pay it) - they are not going to jeopardise that to get a few million one-off from an asset sale - remember £5.5m was the best offer after almost 6 months on the market - it doesn't matter what it's value is, creditors would only get what someone is willing to pay ....... This whole unwind of sale is a non-starter
Don't think HMRC agreed to the asset sell to Green and on, did they not only say no to a CVA? They didn't get a say who bought the assets.
Craig Whyte has a secured creditor charge over the assets as insurance against the Ticketus £25m loan. Legally on administration D&P should have recognised Whyte and Ticketus as the first call on the assets, not a giveaway to Green.
D&P were negligent on only offering all assets together as a football club business. Totally wrong. The value of the assets is greatly increased individually on the market for other uses.
Did Craig White not abscond with money belonging to the club, and put us into admin by not paying taxes. The guy has no shame now coming back to squeeze more money out of a proud club he shafted in the first place.
If this is true it could turn nasty, BDO or Lord Hodge can reject the D & P asset sale hence the liquidation process will take longer and who knows what else will come out of this. Is this the reason for rush of share issue?
Bobby
If White told me on a summers day that the sky was blue and the grass was green I would still not believe him. Peeps get to grips HE IS A COMPLETE LOONEY TUNE.
CW is not objecting to the sale of the assets, he is making a claim against the proceeds of such sale. He will also make a claim against any other monies recovered by either the administrators or liquidators from the old company. None of this has anything to do with the new company or CG, if CW felt the assets were being sold too cheaply he would have taken court action to prevent the sale.
When Ticketus did not appear on the list as a secured creditor then it was obvious CW held a floating charge over the assets of the old company. D&P dismissed his floating charge but they are not the final judge, it will be fought out in the courts.
There is a legal action against Collier Bristow that could nett 25 million, plus other monies recovered, CW wants the fiirst 26 million as the floating charge holder.
The problem surrounds his legal right to simultaneously buy and sell assets, forget about it and leave it to the lawyers.
I would worry more why CG has brought forward his share issue plans, smells of cash flow problems to me. Ideally you sell shares after the company has been turned round, not during the initial stages of this process.
I have this feeling the general running costs of Rangers are impossible to reduce without reducing revenue. Its the main reason previous boards could not cut costs, its just a bad business structure. At the end of the day Celtic are only in a viable position because fans and investors unknowingly donated 20-30 million to restructure the business.
Cant help feeling the 20 mill share issue is to pay people to go away! Or at least a substantial amount of it.
This was the case from the start but the msm believed d& p . just like when yesterday paul clark admitted rfc were dead to uefa . end of.
The legal parties will thrash it out and that is the correct way. However, I still don't understand why the taxman is not pushing for the arrest of CW for tax and NI evasion. The money was collected from the staff etc. so where did it go?
A lot of this guess work is boring. What I want to know and would help me figure out the whole situation a little bit more easier is why doesn't a journalist go and track down class mates or friends of Craig whyte from when he was a child. If they confirm he was a rangers fan as a child I would feel a little easier that what he has done to rangers is in some way a stroke of genius to help us in the long run. If it turned out he was never a rangers fan then things are going to get worse. And why have HMRC not got the police on to whyte because at the end of the day he has committed fraud
Great posts and clever conversation but, my question all along, regardless of CW legal rights is: What did CW do with the money he illegally withheld from the taxman (key word being illegally)?
Whyte paid the massive bills with the withheld tax money. Ally getting bumped out of Europe to minnows with his championship winning team of international players forced that.
Ally saying Whyte hasn't explained that issue is disgraceful. Focus on football McCoist.
It wasn't tax evasion! It was accounted for in the books but didnt have the money to pay it (used it on other bills). Why do you idiots keep saying rangers are running at a loss? 6m wage bill and 10m in season ticket sales...
Please dont blame D & P, Whyte or Green for this mess we only have to ask ourselves what state we were in when someone can purchase the club for £1. It was £1 plus debts which was deliberately omitted by the press ( Sir DMs puppets) . Just remember Whyte relied heavy on us qualifying in europe which never happened but Super Ally is always having a go at Whyte when he was responsible for the non qualification yrt he is still there and Whyte is long gone. also Whyte has never came out in the press and blamed McCoist for anything, time for Ally to walk away.
" Why do you idiots keep saying rangers are running at a loss? 6m wage bill and 10m in season ticket sales..."
Assuming the wage bill for 234 employees is 6 million and the basic running costs are 6 million as per D&Ps accounts, I would guess Rangers are at best breaking even and at worst losing a few million per year. CG has stated some of the 20 million would be used as working capital which suggests the latter is the case. CG is shrewd enough to realise the same number of season tickets may not be sold next season.
We will soon find out in the share prospectus.
Ok.... Then there is the other tickets, hospitality, merchandise, sponsorship! You really have no clue! As you said your just guessing... Run along now!
" Ok.... Then there is the other tickets, hospitality, merchandise, sponsorship! You really have no clue! As you said your just guessing... Run along now! "
I am not guessing, I am repeating the words of CG, he clearly stated some of the 20 million was for working capital. Which part of this do you not understand ?
You do not need funds for working capital unless you are running at a loss, this is basic 101 accounts. It is hardly a cashflow problem when you get most of your cash at the beginning of the season, is it now ?
Study the last set of accounts and tell me how the wage bill can only be 120,000 per week for 230 people, 30 of whom are football players, scouts, physios, coaches and a manager.
200 people on £300 per week is 60,000, that leaves £60,000 for 22 players and 8 staff !!
How many of that 30 are on £2k per week ?
You spent a decade or more ignoring glaring evidence that your club was losing money hand over fist, and you have learned nothing, you deserve everything you get.
Now run along and buy shares that will be worth zip 24 hours after you buy them.
What are you on about 200 people on £300 per week? Your assuming they are all full time! That's just a crazy assumption! Most of these are part time workers! You again are just making this up as you go along! Why?
Some are part time and some are earning more than 15k per year, it is a mean average. The point is the wage bill is not 6 million per year and Rangers are still running at a loss.
Why are you refusing to accept the obvious ?
Why is it obvious rangers are running at a loss?
" Why is it obvious rangers are running at a loss? ".
You do not need a share issue for working capital if you are running at a profit, do you now ?
Not all companys are structured in a way that major downsizing is feasible, Rangers income has more than halved but not their running costs.