Rangers Rumours Archive April 01 2012

01 Apr 2012 20:59:41
A few points.

1. Can someone please tell me when Leeds United were liquidated? I don't know who made that up because they have never been liquidated. They sold off most of the playing staff and were forced to sell their training ground and stadium. But they never went under.

2. AC Fiorentina were liquidated in 2002 and later reformed as ACF Fiorentina. They applied to have they're history reinstated due to different laws in Italy, people think they're logo is the same but in fact it is not. Florence's comune instead granted Florentia Viola use of the stylized coat of arms used in other city documents. Diego Della Valle acquired the current logo the following year in a judicial auction for a fee of €2.5 million, making it the most expensive logo in Italian football. They continue to play in the same stadium because they do not own it, it is a community used stadium.

Leeds went under ya nutter hence the reason they are called leeds utd afc2007

Eh......"Leeds went under ya nutter" check your facts before posting as you are looking pretty stupid!! Leeds did not go into liquidation as a ken bates bid was accepted for a second time and he went about preventing this!!

Leeds were never Liquidated they event through two noughts of administration Ken Bates took over for nominal fee and is still in controll no top flight club has been liquidatored

No they aren't they are called Leeds United Association Football Club and have been called that since 1919 you halfwit. They had financial trouble 2007 and entered administration. They exited administration via a CVA agreement. The CVA was due to end on 3 July 2007, which would have allowed Bates to regain full control of the club. However HM Revenue & Customs challenged the CVA, a decision which COULD ultimately have resulted in the liquidation of the club. Under league rules, if the club were still in administration at the start of the next season, Leeds would have been prevented from starting their campaign by the Football League. Following the challenge by HMRC, the club was put up for sale by KPMG, and once again Ken Bates' bid was accepted. The league eventually sanctioned this under the "exceptional circumstances rule" but imposed a 15 point deduction due to the club not following football league rules on clubs entering administration. On 31 August 2007 HMRC decided not to pursue their legal challenge any further.

Therefore the club was not and never has been liquidated. Get your facts right

If you want to use those examples for reasons that Rangers can be liquidated then come back as the same entity, try to remember that this is Scotland, not England or Italy. The rules may be different.

Leeds United Football Club, founded 4 May 2007, is a limited company, the directors of which are Ken Bates, Shaun Harvey and Mark Taylor. The company purchased Leeds United A.F.C. via a creditors vote after the club entered administration, but this ownership was challenged by HM Revenue & Customs and the club was subsequently put up for sale by the administrators KPMG.

That does not mean Leeds were liquidated "ya nutter" it is simple a name formed by the consortium who took over the running of the club.

When Craig Whyte took over he formed The Rangers F.C. Group Ltd. So does that mean Rangers have gone under, errrrmmm, NO!

First Post is correct (Technically). They did everything a company would go through if liquidated but never did, their CVA was challenged by the HMRC prior to exit. The trading company was called LUFC PLC that company was obviously insolvent hence being in administration and having a CVA. Gerard Krasner a very similar character to Craig Whyte, headed a consortium who took it to the brink. Ken Bates bought LUFC PLC from Krasner and convinced the Football League to allow him to form a new trading company and still keep their league membership. This was granted "Under Exceptional Circumstances" by the Football League. Officially they were not liquidated but LUFC PLC was folded and the current trading company was created and operates to this day. Make of that what you may.

I posted those reason as to state why rangers may not be able to come back as the same company

Yes OP your opening post was correct and only reply 1 which is deluded. You do indeed raise fine points. The Gers are in far more serious bother than some of the blinkered are coaxing themselves into believing by suggesting other precedents which don't exist.

The novelty and celebrating will soon dry up if Rangers do go out the game. I used to be a regular Rangers season ticket holder and would never have bought one or needed to if there hadnt been a Celtic. Its got to the stage now that we all just want it to be over and done with. Rangers cant go on struggling to hold onto players the way they have done recently, we would be better put out our misery. At least if this week is the end we won the last oldfirm game even when we were in administration and players on a fraction of the celtic ones.

Clearly the old Fiorentina and the new one are totally different entities.

But under Wikepedia they are not. So culturally they are one club even if legally they are two.

.....or the just simply edited the old fiorentina wiki page and added the new info to save time

More closer to home Airdrie United are a better example of this.

After Blair Nimmo of KPMG decided he didn't want to sell to Stevie Archibald the original Airdrieonians were liquidated and ceased to exist.

A fans/local business consortium bought the (use of the) stadium then bought Clydebank, re-located the team and changed their name.

Culturally people like to propogate the myth that Airdrie United share thr history of Airdrieonians, which is not the case as they are the illegitimate child of Clydebank.

It is the same with Livingston, who started off as a Ferranti Thistle works team changed their name to Meadowbank Thistle when they entered the league as company names weren't allowed, then when they moved in the late 90's they changed their name to their adopted location.

The history remains with the club based on their league membership not simply what they happen to be called or the stadium that they play in.

If or, as it feels just now, when Rangers are liquidated their history will end at that point, and any new company will start with a blank record to form their own history.

Wiki is full of facts, thing is some of them are not true. Anyone can put stuff on wiki and until someone else either removes it or ammends it it stays there.

Leeds United's Wiki page is locked so it cannot be edited by anyone

Was Rangers history not lost when they began employing Catholics ?

Will Rangers history be lost when Scotland leaves the Union in 2014 ?

History is pure bunkum, football is a sport not some political or religious institution.

Was rangers history not lost when they employed catholics? Could you explain ur question although I think ur question says pretty much everything we need to know about you.away back to the dark ages cretin we have moved on obviously you haven't.

01 Apr 2012 19:26:57
can anybody tell me how craig whyte can get away with not paying the paye and tax and no criminal charges are brought against him.

Because he technically only made the decision that Rangers would not pay PAYE and NI. So its Rangers who have done wrong not Whyte he only made the decisions.

It's not a criminal offence to not pay tax.... Especially if you can't afford to

Hmrc are very tetchy about bringing criminal charges on the grounds that they will suffer jury bias, thats why they stick to tribunals most commonly. harry redknapp case being an example. pretty much guilty but he charmed the jury. judges are far more reliable.

So he buys club for £1 from Murray gets £24.5million from Ticketas spends £18million to Lloyds.£6.5million in his back pocket +£9million unpaid tax +ni not paid but taken from employees into his back pocket and it's not a criminal offence,nice payday for 9months work.So at least £15.5 million so far.

He gamed the system.

Refusing to pay PAYE & NI when it was demanded is not something he could have done without getting the Tax authorities down in him quick and hard.

So what he did was not 'refuse' to stump up the cash when it was demanded.

Instead he filed the payroll submissions to HMRC very late, so - in effect - it was the paperwork that was overdue up until February, not the money.

Without the paperwork, HMRC couldn't work out what was actually outstanding, so they couldn't issue a demand for payment.

(Its a bit like if you put your miss your deadline for your tax return, you get £100 fine + interest).

Had he continued this past February, he would have been strayed into the territory of serious criminality, rather than just civil penalties.
So he stopped doing it after he'd gone on for as long as he could get away with it for without leaving himself open to criminal prosecution, and will have submitted the correct paperwork a couple of months ago at the last possible overdue date that would keep him out of jail.

Then he'll have got his tax demand back by return of post for 9 months payroll taxes.

And as soon as he opened the enveloped, he'll have immediately headed along to the court of session to put the club into liquidation.

That is how he did it.

It's not a criminal offence that's why believe me if it was they would need. To build a lot more jails to house all directors who. Are late paying paye. In this climate lots of businesses have. Months outstanding.

It is not a criminal offence to withhold tax gained from your employees as long as you pay it before 1st april which has now passed. now it is up to hmrc to recover that paye . if it was a criminal offence he would have been arrested by now.

If the paye is not paid in full charges will be made. this is theft from players and other employees

Not a crime ....... Try googling embezzlement !! I think you may find otherwise

Because he has not broken any law. he is late with the payments, which is not the same as avoiding them.

"If the paye is not paid in full charges will be laid."

This is not necessarily the case I am afraid - much as I wish it was.
Its possible HMRC could secure a criminal conviction). I hope they do try and prosecute. They could certainly put Whyte in the dock if they had evidence, because even though the PAYE dent is 'Rangers' not Whyte's own, he was an office-holder (responsible director) in te company at the time and is therefore answerable for its actions. Sadly though we have to accept that such a prosecution could be very difficult to secure in practice.

In reality, HMRC would have to show both Intent and corroboration: i.e. not only did he do it, but he knew what he was doing and was doing it deliberately, and - in practice - that somebody else knew all about it, so as to get past the 'beyond all reasonable doubt' requirement to bang him up in pokey.
Any defence he advanced would pretty much have to be specifically proven to be a complete pack of lies, and a judge would require alot more evidence than the fact that 'his lips were moving' to conclude this. The best hope in this regard would proabably if the likes of Gary Withey and Craig Whyte turned on each other, and sold each other out.

Note that thiser high evidence burden only applies to criminal prosecutions. In Civil Tax cases (like the Rangers EBT case itself) the evidence threshhold is alot lower and it is far easier to secure a conviction... which could be bad news for Rangers w.r.t. the EBT case.

In a civil case, you don't get to put anyone in jail, but you may at least put them in the poor house. HMRC have a better chance of winning these, and this is why the civil courts is where almost all tax cases sit, whether there is suspected criminality or not.

Because hes a great wee guy!

Hail Hail!

01 Apr 2012 14:56:43
I wonder if the powers that be have thought about how hard it is gonna be to get a 'loyal' support for the newco? Coz the real loyal supporters aint interested in a new club with no history no world record trophys and the name of being tax dodgers for ever more. You got till wednesday then if its still 'unclear' it will be very clear to us !!!!! If bkg pull a rabbit out of the hat then i really really hope there is no place for any and i mean any former employees of the club!

What 'exactly' is this 'rant' all 'about' hmmmm?

Rangers are my team, THIS rangers not some new team with no history. If rangers go I for one will not be interested in any other scottish team and certainly not some new nobody's. Rtid. steviebear

I dont want rangers to die, but if it is the only option i would fully support any new club formed. Although there is no guarentee that wed reform in the spl may have to be the sfl although they are seperate entities. It does appear however from the outside looking in that liquidation is becoming more and more likely. Concidering that this us the plan for Club 9 and possibly even the singapore cobsortium. Bad Times

If we do liquidate, why dont we create a newco OURSELVES. Why not break away from the people who have drove us under and start a new club.owned by the fans. There is a movement @rangersunite to purchase the club for the fans but the way things are shaping up i feel we should grab the bull by the horns and push on but only if or when liquudation is on the cards. why should some american or far east company be allowed to role in and sell us off bit by bit, and expect us to fall inline behind THEIR newco. lets fall inline behind OURS!

I will not be supporting a newco its this rangers i support not another
trueblue

I have been bluenose for 42 years, my sons went to games with me from 2000 onwards, they are spoiled and used to big names and big games, they have stopped going in last few years as they think we are not signing good enough players, what hope have we for other young bears of the future, I already see more English team tops on youngsters in my area than OF would not have happened a few years ago!

If a newco is formed it will just be a vehicle to allow some bunch of people who care nothing about Rangers make money off of those of us stupid enough to think this new club is still our club.

Our club has been killed by David Murray and all those who sat with him on the board, Whyte is just making a quick buck off it which is what he does best, liquidate for profit.

You had youre chance,20 million pledged to saverangers.resulted in 250,000cash to help your club! liquidation is a done deal and whilst it not your fault, you should have put your money where your mouths were !! then a fan buyout would have been possible.foriegn companies are not interested in history,only profit.

I would not support the newco, it,s this rangers or no one else......EVER
qwolf

Head of Blue Knights, who is a former director, and therefore an ex-employee.

Dont be so thick,you cant erase memories.you cant erase remembring the great players we have watched.a name just a name,same stadium same strip,same loyal support.whats all the fuss about. BLUE TIT.

I wont be supporting a newco rangers, will have no intrest in it or SPL football. If the new owners think they can liquadate then get all the supporters back they have a big surprise coming to them. My new football intrest will be focused on the english premiership.

2 the above post from bluetit if u dont c wot all the fuss is about u are in the minority. remove blue and ure left with your proper name.

Will not support a newco 45 years supporting the rangers newco not my team rangers die ma support dies with watp ... Kenny bluenose

Unless further information comes out implicating them, i think some people being a bit hard on AJ and PM. AJ was accountable to the bank,and along with PM succeeded in reducing the debt from from £54million,to £18million. Arangements with the bank were in place to pay this off. in my opinion,when all this scandal broke, the bank panicked,SDM panicked,CW saw an opportunity and approached SDM with his plan,which we now see before us. CW then panicked when we went out of Europe,and lost £10million. Whyte & David Murray were the ones who ultimately shafted us. If Ch4's programme, implicates others at a later date,then fair enough. But i think PM has the club at heart,and his blue knights are Rangers supporters.

If Rangers go then so do I... No "Newco"

If more fans make this clear then they would have to think again...

Will some of the bears on here have a look at themselves FFS we are all hurting but saying you wont go back because we dont have any history no world record blah blah blah (glory hunters no other feasible explanation or excuse) we were award family club of the year last year doubt we would have got that award if judges had read these comments.I for one wont be walking away for a couple of pieces of silverware history is ours to make and when you lose a loved one you don't just forget they existed (you might try but it aint going to happen) the same songs will be sung the same traditions upheld and more importantly the same family will be there week in week out

You can't just support another team. Unless your a schoolboy. If a newco is what were left with then a newco is what well have . I don't see new owners worrying about fans views I'm afraid. Not against the chance to save millions. It's a business don't forget. Fans views went out the window about 20 years ago.

To the post above, you are deluded.
If we are liquidated the history has gone.

The club will never be the same.

If Rangers go then so do I... that's my post above, I'm no glory hunter mate, I "stood" in the East Enclosure many years ago and watched Rangers when there was only a few thousand there. Long before Souness came.

I'm willing to take all the hardship that comes if we can keep the original Rangers. There's nothing glorious about that.

You seem quite comfortable in a "Newco" with no debt, slate wiped clean, and maybe even money to spend. Who's the glory hunter.

Don't forget there is no business with out the fans

Newco will be a counterfeit Rangers, and in a short time the 2nd best in Scotland to Cetic. The history & pedigree gone!

FANS WANTED Glory hunters need not apply

Fans have HUGE power here - if they dont pay for season tickets THEY the fans will dictate the future for rangers.

FANS WANTED glory hunters need not apply....

I have been a Glasgow Rangers fan all my life. Stood at Hampden freezing watching Rangers beat Queens Park 5 - 0 in a Glasgow cup tie in 1985 along with a couple of thousand bears.

I for one will not be back to see Rangers as a "Newco". History gone, things will never be the same ever again.

I hope that somehow liquidation can be avoided, CW should be brought to justice for what he has done to our club, the man has no morals and hope he gets his day.

Stu

And you dont do walking away............you always have

Fans Wanted glory hunters need not apply?

You are the Glory hunter pal, you would liquidate yer Granny for a quid! Rangers SUPPORTERS have more substance & dignity than that. We pay our way & put our Great club back on a sound footing, the right way! As long as it takes.

Stop blaming CW...All that went before are at fault, he is scum of first order in to make quick buck..but, David Murray knew what CW was and he just wanted a way out. emm walking away from the problems. I feel so sorry for all you bears fans I myself is really disgusted at John Grieg I really thought he was Rangers to the core but even he let you down , when he walked I thought he had done it with dignity ..now we know it was to deflect attention from himself,,Last week I was jibbing Jelly and ice cream but, I never thought for a minute that The Gers might be no more . I do not feel sorry for the players , Mr Fatty , or any of the board but, I really feel for the true Ranger supporters , It is s##t and you do not deserve this..

How silly.......the supporters do no support in bad times ...right now they are but that is a first and that is what makes it sad too little too late

What dignity is there in not following a "newco"...theres nothing but loss. I don't want a newco, I dont want a slate thats wiped clean, I want someone to pay our debts but lets face it guys its not happening. How can we complain that the company gets liquidated if a fan based offer (blue knights with RST,RSA) cannot gather enough funds. 250,000 in Manchester....multipy that by £300...Well clearly that hasnt happened. I promsied my money and havent heard a thing form them since then... how many of the 250,000 did? if they didnt I think they are the glory hunters...I'll follow a phoenix cos thats how much I love the club...no one but no one will take it away from me...

There is no chance of a cva as hector and ticketus will oppose it as they are owed £39mm +

If the newco was formed by fans for the fans, then yes I'd absolutely get behind it, even if we play in a public park in Glasgow in the third division.

If it's a new club formed by a consortium looking to milk our support of Rangers for even more money, and restarting the club with the rest of Scottish football hating us as tax dodgers then no chance. I don't mind being hated by the rest of Scottish football because we're the best. I do mind being hated because we are basically corrupt. It's shameful.

Don't know what to think now lads.
CW plan, best for Rangers?
PM and TBK best way forward?
The word's of Follow Follow truly... and ironically, sum up this whole mess.
"For There's Not A Team Like The Glasgow Rangers,- No Not One And There Never Shall Be One"
For the anti-newco bears who have posted above, i can see their point, but if PM get's in (looking grim) admittedly,but if he does we need to support him, and the share issue,...if... we get that choice.
Stevie-A-Bear

I will support a newco - the guy is right this will seperate the glory hunters from the diehards. The instituition wil never die, only if we let it die. Who says we ahve no history? a piece of paper? away you go, same club, same stadium, same fans, same club

J

Timmy here. For what it's worth I'm with if the history goes my support goes posters here. Nonsense to say the history isn't the club. The tic and the Gers are all about history, depth and family

Rangers starting in Div3 is not possible, their structure is too large and their basic overheads too high. They would run up massive debts getting back into SPL, the average attendance for 3 years would be 10-15k with little other forms of revenue.
Rangers operating cost are about 50 million, this would have to be slashed to 15 million and I don't think this is possible in a company of this size.

01 Apr 2012 08:57:37
It has taken Alex Thomson of Channel 4 News a few weeks to achieve what the rest of the Scottish media combined have been unable to do in two years – find proof regarding Rangers’ misuse of Employee Benefit Trusts. In truth, the “succulent lambs” of Glasgow’s press were unwilling to investigate the story and upset the cosy access they had inside Rangers. Such was their determination to keep the lid on the story, Thomson even received a physical threat from one fellow journalist, as he revealed in a blog post recently.

In a special report shown on the 7pm bulletin yesterday evening, the lid was lifted to show a glimpse of what has been going on in recent years. It is safe to say that the contents contained within were explosive.


Rangers under a cloud - damning new evidence (image courtesy of Kenneth Hall)

EBT LOANS HAVE NOT BEEN REPAID

According to Murray International Holdings (MIH), former Rangers parent company, no EBT loans have yet been repaid, even those from the earliest days of the scheme’s existence. This is not especially surprising – EBT loans are designed to be favourable to the loanee and in practice are simply extended ad-infinitum in many cases.

More damning were the internal communications revealed in the report from former director and chief executive Martin Bain. First there were two documents in which requests for payments of £100,000 were made – nothing here definitively proved any “improper” use of the scheme. However…

THE SMOKING GUN

Then there was the letter from Bain to then chairman John McClelland in which he requests that his pay increase be paid via the trust. This is definitely not an appropriate use of the scheme – EBTs are for discretionary payments only, contractual payments through a trust are not permitted.

“…any pay rise I got should be paid through the trust, obviously as a discretionary bonus as it cannot be contractual…” [Source: Channel 4 News]

This wasn’t a notion exclusive to Bain, according to the evidence presented, as:

“…my increase was to be non-contractual put through as a discretionary bonus as I do with players. Coaches and more recently John Greig.”

John Greig is the Rangers Hall of Fame member and “Greatest Ever” club servant (as voted by ‘Gers fans in 1999) who served on the board of directors from 2003 until Craig Whyte’s takeover. So we have fellow board members, coaching staff and players all receiving wage increases disguised as discretionary bonuses. What can the purpose of this be, one can speculate, if it is not the deliberate evasion of tax obligations?

And there’s more:

“at the end of the meeting I gave her back the letter addressed to me from you that stated my contractual increase for her to shred”

A stark confirmation that documents outlining contractual payments were to be destroyed. One significant point of debate in recent weeks has been the potential existence of “side letters” to contracts. Rather than leave the payments to a gentleman’s agreement, had Rangers documented them in some way in advance, thus proving they were not “discretionary”?

If this would appear to be enough to constitute a smoking gun, consider this: it has taken Alex Thomson four weeks or so to get this far. HMRC have been investigating Rangers for years and it is their evidence the club will have to have discredited if the tribunal is to find in their favour.

OTHER POINTS OF NOTE

Campbell Ogilvie – The Scottish FA President, and former Rangers company secretary and director, has claimed he knew of the EBT (he could hardly deny it considering it was published in the company accounts) but that only Sir David Murray knew its workings. This claim has now been utterly discredited and Ogilvie’s position at the SFA, not to mention integrity, requires further scrutiny to say the least.
Red herrings - In recent months, the focus has been on Craig Whyte and his shambolic regime but in reality the tax issues of the prior decade are the main story. Recent efforts to discredit the Big Tax Case as something of a red herring assume that HMRC are eager to do deals to scrimp together a few pence for every pound which they are owed. Given the flagrant nature of what Rangers have done, this would appear very unlikely.
SFA & SPL rules – These revelations are further indication of the existence of dual contracts in contravention of player registration rules – raising again the prospect of Rangers being stripped of trophies won during the period the EBT was in operation.
English clubs – at the conclusion of his report, Thomson points out that HMRC also have other clubs in their sights over the use of EBTs both “north and south of the border”. As this site has touched upon before, Arsenal have already paid back-taxes relating to their use of EBTs. The FA must begin their own investigation into the use of Employee Benefit Trusts within the Premier League and Football League immediately.
There can be little doubt – Rangers tax scam is one of the biggest scandals in the history of British sport. And there’s is sure to be more to come, though not from the Glasgow press who are utterly indicted by the investigations of a few praiseworthy individuals.

What this will mean for Rangers’ support – as always the innocent party when clubs succumb to financial irregularity – over the coming months hardly bears thinking about. They have our sympathy.

However, no amount of sympathy can dismiss the need for honesty and the integrity of the game as a whole. No matter how painful, the full extent of their wrongdoing must be uncovered whatever the consequences, even liquidation.

Never ending ! rotten to the core

All this has been out there for best part 6 months nothing new. Im also sure this guy been working on this for atleast 18 months. yes the media in glasgow havent been printing everything but it has been in other part of the media.

There is no smoking gun yet with regards EBT's and players YET so there is currently no need for sfa and spl to get involved yet. Id say Rangers will not be stripped of anything as soon as the sfa do that a who new can of worms is opened up with uefa. european football places and co efficient. also stripping doesnt then give the other club that championship or trophy. that championship or trophy becomes nil and void.

an example of that is cup victories maybe giving celtic a scottish cup, any team playing rangers in that cup run could dispute they missed out on a potential cup run.

the whole thing is as mess. teams relegated could state a victory could have stopped that. so many ifs and buts thats why the sfa and spl will be like the media and tippy toe around it till they have a solution that pleases all parties.

How many times...EBTs were legal! And in the audited accounts every year!

EBTs have been used by plumbers, joiners, IT contractors and all sorts of companies for years. The issue always has been around us administering them properly, and was there a second contract/letter of comfort?

If 2 contracts, we are screwed - liable to HMRC (£49m) and in breach of SFA rules (titles stripped, the lot).

I just can't see how we could have made such a c*ck up---we must have paid financial and tax advisers a fortune to set the scheme up in the first place! SG

Far from daming Rangers the fact that none of the EBTs have ever been repaid proves that there were no terns and condition therefore could not have been contractual payments and were perfectly LEGAL IF NOT PAID IN CONTRACTUAL BASIS (how many times has this to be pointed out).
On the fact of the e-mails on the context that has been made public it in my humble opinion would be fair to assume they are part of a conversation and again not a legally binding agreement and certainly not contractual as a Contract has to exactly mirror the offer made ie Terms Conditions Dates by LAW.
Much lie the case of the player sold allegedly for £3.85mil but buying club stated £1.7mill, how much did selling club put through the books £? without all the facts an allegation of money laundering could be made against the selling club and fiddling the books against the buying club (if they had restrictions in place on how much they could spend) as I say a one sided conversation will never be proof of Absolute Guilt until all the facts are known there can be no proof of guilt as 3 Judges all tax experts have proved these smoking guns are far from damming but they do muddy the waters for the defence and the prosecution (long time for an open and shut case with all this irrefutable damming evidence) oh and on the reporter how did he manage to get Quotes when he clearly states Mr Bain refused to comment shabby reporting at its best

Your directors couldn't direct traffic. There's a notion called corporate governance - tho I doubt they could spell it

Far more likely they did not pay a fortune for solid legal advice, but paid lip service for dodgy legal advice,,, which wont stand up to scrutity...

Good financial advice would never allow 2nd contracts - poor/cheap financial advice will leave a whole like this unfilled

Wasn't Rangers paying David Murray's Murray International holdings £500,000 a year for management services?

There's your financial advice bears!!

Where do I begin ?. Ah Honesty and Integrity, two words you dont often hear from a celtic fan. Ok why was Ogilvie discredited ? you forgot to mention why, or what about Martin bain's letter to McClelland requesting his wage rise to be paid through the EBT ? Does someone have the reply letter ? Mabe the reply letter said Dear Martin no chance, which makes that letter non evidence. You see I dont know the ins and outs of this so called investigation by this guy Thommo and his 2 new mates, the Celtic cause fighters, but more importantly NEITHER DO YOU.

He hasnt any evidence that players were involved back under ur rock plz

You fellas don't get it. Regardless of your ebts your clubs going under. How about you stop bickering and finger pointing and try to do something about it.

Did alex thommo not state ch4 had seen these dodgy Ebt,s or do you always choose to ignore the unscrupulous facts?No wonder your clubs in the state its in with fans like yours.I think the quote was alex thommo,s goin to rip ragers and the sfa a new a**ehole?Watch and learn thommo will expose both and he doesn't do walkin away!

Alot of finacial experts on this forum you seem to know more than the judge in the big tax case why dont you go on your own forum celabrate your title win and then when a ruling has been made about ebt's if it goes your way which i know you are praying for each night then come on here but for the mean time jog on and give us peace

SDM was well aware of the consequences the EBTS's could bring. But everything was going well living the dream, prior to the economic crash SDM could have written cheques from MIH and everything would have carried on. But like the banks it was dependant on continuing the way they were. The construction and property businesses were hit the hardest with the financial collapse and at the time this was 80% of the MIH business, Rangers was now a problem for him, when HMRC came knocking, something he was expecting the safety net of MIH was no longer there as the safety net, no reserve!! Lehman Brothers etc etc...what was the phrase "To big to fall" all including RFC;s future ,unfortunately, built on a pack of cards!

In essence EBT were legal at the time, but (as the Porn King ex lawyer said on C4 News) Rangers did something different when they started using them, its this difference that is coming back to haunt you

If found guilty rangers should be stripped of all titles
I also believe that they should not be awarded to any other club but an * against the year with removed due to financial cheating

This guy thommo,newsreader for channel 4,he,s got a blog!When you goni wake up?Thommo is a 20 yr war correspondent,head of ch4 news,won loads of awards and ye think rfc goni be saved.You will be liquidated and thats the good bit..when thommo,s finished wi this rfc,sfa,media and refs goni be exposed for corruption and thats when your problems are going to begin.Old bill,Uefa,legal battles and taxman to boot.Even a blind man can see whats coming the ones who can,t can ye send me some of that new wonder drug your taking

Not often i agree with Timmy's post's but i think the one above will be proved correct. Only thing though, How come the Dhims know so much? I'm being serious. Oh and why do Celtic want to bale to England? Also like the way the poster relates to the reporter as "Thommo".
We know where all this came from. Don't we?...
Stevie-A-Bear

Not sure of the legality but if all this nonsense surrounds the point that none of the loans have been paid back then many football clubs and thousands more businesses are in serious danger.

These are how EBT's were used by everyone.

No consolation to Gers of course.

Remember Timmy's this was deemed legal at the time by HMRC.

Well a wee look on scotslawthoughts.wordpress by lawyers who obviously know a lot more than your lawyers and duff and duffer would help you understand the full seriousness of the plight your in and no they don,t believe for a 2nd your coming out of administration!On alexthommo his twitter blog is were name came from should read he tells you who is nxt in line daily...he reads news so unlike the daily rags he sees a massive story but doesn't like succulent lamb.Press nxt on his agenda

Only thing though, How come the Dhims know so much? I'm being serious.
___________

Simple answer is: Because they don't believe anything that is written in the Daily record or said on Superscoreboard by the succulent lamb munching fraternity who were bought and paid for by Sir david Murray 2 decades ago.

Alex Thomson's next story will go into this. Graham Spiers has already fessed up.

Almost all of the information needed to make an honest and independent assessment of Rangers plight has been in the public domain since April 2011, alot of it from primary sources.

The celtic blogs picked it up. Clearly they were more likely to find out what they could. Most of the Rangers ones ignored it as a Tim conspiracy. I suppose they didn't want to seem disloyal?

While CW was being hailed as a Billionaire who would invest heavily in Rangers, a quick google ot check on companycheck website would have told anyone that he was an asset stripped and that almost every company he has taken on has been liquidated.

When Tom Daly did a panorama exposing CW, The reaction of most Rangers fans was to protest outside the BBC! Very few thought to check the facts sadly, and any that did were hounded!

The MIH accounts were published and it was known that SDM was £800m in debt and that Lloyds wanted a sale to get some of their money back before the BTC hit.

For months CW paid no one who didn't take him to court and was in and out of the Court of session more than some of the judges.

I mean... thinking back... you must have wondered a wee bit?

If there is a lesson in all this it is that you should listen to what is being said, and not just dismiss things because of who is saying it. Just because someone supports another team doesn't mean they are always going to be wrong!

Great post above...I have tried despite cold hard facts every week told you,s were to look but timmys always wrong eh?I haven,t gloated or ridiculed anyone despite some idiots posting ridiculous lies to yer own fans.This bombscare was told to a freelance journalist in 2008 and to sdm that you were in trouble yet not one of the scottish media informed the fans while eating their succulent lamb and continue to ignore it so if it takes scotslaw,alex thomson or anyone else to expose this then who,s to blame?Timmy of course it is!I I knew about whyte 2-3 months into his reign so why did no-one else in the media?As i said before alex thommo will and the succulent lamb reporter who,s already made threats to him did that escape ye too.I,m all out of sympathy noo ye were told but its all a timmy conspiracy.Sure it is.