Rangers Rumours Archive March 21 2012

 

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21 Mar 2012 20:25:35
just heard on bbc 5 live, kennedy has been shown round ibrox and murry park and seen talking to mccoist, wheather it means anything we do not know, obviously this guy doesnt care about the outcome of any of the cases we are in, and lets not forget souness was instrumental in the move as he is best buds we brian kennedy.

Believable33 Unbelievable21

What u think bears would bryan kennedy be a very good choice and help make us great again

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Well we can't get any worse and i would like to see Souness back in some capacity.

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All interested parties will have meetings this wk with administrators and mccoist , Kennedy being the first may mean he has offered best deal, just an opinion watp

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What makes you think he doesn't care, he stated if Ticketus stayes he walks.

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Radio Scotland said that McCoist is meeting with the interested parties from all bidders this week.

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Whos to say others have not been shown around and met the managing staff. I remember ally saying last week he had spoke to some of the interested parties. We will just have to sit it out im afraid guys

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His offer is unconditional, I think he is the best option bears, I like the blue knights but don't want ticketus involved, also considering there is about 5 wealthy business men in blue knights it doesn't seem they are investing much!

J

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Souness 5hat on Rangers and bailed out to Liverpool, why would you want him back ?

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Why do people not want ticketus involved, they gave 24mill cash in good faith, they want to be involved in saving the club, and their cash. its in ticketus intrests that gers dont go into liquidation, therefore, if they are involved they will make damn sure we dont go into liq!

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Because Ticketus are a 3rd party with a vested intrest. They want to make money. They might keep us afloat through initial stages but they will be expecting to make money off the club. In essence in exchange for keeping us afloat in the short term, long term they will bleed us dry

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By bleed us dry ,do you mean get their money back?

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What you seriously think they wont be charging us a high rate of intrest? You think this company are here only to help us? Its a business FFS, they are in it to make money and you certainly dont make money by just recouping the money you lent

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Look at how much money the RFC board were making and also getting extras through the ebts.

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Craig Whyte borrowed from Ticketus to finance his deal to purchase Rangers and then kept the balance of the money, no Ticketus money went into Rangers accounts and at the point that he 'sold' the season tickets Whyte was not in a position to do so legally, he did not own the club. Whyte should therefore be responsible for the debt or have no claim to the shareholding of the club.
BigGordi.

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I think all interested bidders will want to make some money somewhere down the line. I'm afraid were not in much of a position to pick and choose who if anyone buys us. Don't be fooled by Kennedy saying hell only buy rangers to save us as an institution. He's not made his money that way. He's keeping his cards close to his chest. And if he wants or needs to walk away he can without having made too many promises.

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Who actually represents the rangers fan base. It seems to be nobody, just individuals stating it will be alright dinnae worry.

is there actually anybody that represents the fans, that would be a start. The trusts, groups and co only pipe up when there is a chance of having a go at Celitc.

who represent rangers fan base, anybody ?

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Please stop saying his bid is unconditional, he has already stated it has conditions.

If it was unconditional they would be driving him to the bank and the lawyers.

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All three bids are conditional. It is expected Kennedy's is the mentioned in court re Ticketus in force bid.
All interested parties are being invited to Ibrox/ Murray Park.
There's nothing positive or negative to take from this.
However, Ticketus is watertight and made D&Ps briefs and legal argument look purile.

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If no liquidation and no new start, Ticketus will be around for over 5 years lets get used to the name. Also paying off HMRC over about 8 years, on top of ongoing taxation.
Lean times ahead regardless with little cash for playing squad and salaries. The business will need streamlined with numerous staff redundancies at Ibrox regardless. Unavoidable I'm afraid.

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I think Souness and his control freak personality would be an unmitigated failure at Ibrox, sorry Ashley Madison Park.

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He is quoted as saying Ticketus is the issue!

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The ticketus deal as we all know means that Rangers has no income from season tickets for three years. I think Duff and Phelps are trying to restructure that debt so that it can be paid off over a longer period and not to get out of paying it all together as some people are assuming.
We the supporters could do with knowing for sure what their plan is though!

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This guy is first and foremost in this to make money. however neither he or anyone else will make a move before certain conditions have been addressed.The first of which will be the legallity of the ticketus money used to pay off the debt to the bank. The legal point here is if CW sold the rights before owning the club, it must be with the agreement of the vendor, either as a back letter (a letter which is not lodged with the offical paperwork) or minute of agreement. That is where supporters should be pressurising for clarity and not how much Kennedy is going to invest in the team. No one will buy if they have to watch 24 million dissappear out the door over the next three/four years.Once the ticketus problem is solved we have to have a clear statement of intent from Kennedy to say what he intends to use Ibrox and Muarry Park for in addition to football. There is a lot issues not being aired and I fear Rangers as was, will no longer exsist in the future.

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I have grave concerns as o whether paul murray or brian kennedy have the financies to turn our club around. putting the debt aside we can all see that the first team squad needs overhauled and that could take tens of millions. personally i would also do away with the management team not to mention the hopeless scouts at ibrox.

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At the Five Live debate Mark Dingwall said they asked Whyte if the Ticketus Money and other monies was in the account of Glasgow Rangers PLC. He said uncategorically that it was. They checked and it wasn't in accounts. My view he is libel for the Ticketus money. Only thought is that to get it originally it must have been endorsed by SDM or a lieutenant.

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As i remember ,souness and mcoist had issues when he was manager.so ally would have to go !

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Kennedy is a HIBEE fan.

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21 Mar 2012 18:52:13
Alex Rae just admits to being on EBT

Believable31 Unbelievable45

And..............being part of an ebt is not the issue, it is the implementation of them that is........

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So what?

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Yeah he very probably was. Along with most if not all players from 2001 til 2010. Does not surprise me. Now did he say he had 2 contracts though?

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He was asked by pm about the contract situation and confirmed that he had one contract

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They all were on EBT.
Playing staff, Management and Board.

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The implementation of the ETB's is only relevant to the tax case, they should not have existed at all when it comes to SPL/SFA rules and its almost impossible for them to turn a blind eye now with UEFA showing great interest in how they handle the blatant breaking of their own. rules.

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So what if he had an ebt they were in the annual accounts signed off no one tried to hide them its just whether they were run correctly

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I remeber Murray saying the EBTs were just for the benefit of foreign players!

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There was never 2 contracts - 1 contract and a letter of intent, totally different and this is rangers defence!

J

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Why should EBT's(not ETB's my bhoy) not have existed ? they were perfectly legal until the end of 2010. 5,000 UK companies used them so you'd better get your 'rangers-hater' head off and come up something a bit more reasoned if you're capable that is.

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Yes your right I should have typed EBT's and as you well know it was just a typo, but it changes nothing about what I said, Bears like you are not helpful to Rangers Football club at all.
"OH 5000 other company's have been at it", are those 5000 football clubs playing in Scotland? SPL/SFA rules was the point of my post, not the tax case.

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EBTs were legal if ran correctly.
RFC didnt according to HRMC.

Denial is for fools & criminals.

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A letter of Intent to do what?
Deceive?
I think the content will explain everything!
Where's the dignity?

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As simple as that J? Maybe you should phone the tax man and tell him he is wasting his time. I suggest you look up the definition of a contract with regards Scots law and the term emoluments before popping the champagne cork.

I am NOT saying Rangers will definitely lose the FTT but it appears the evidence is pretty damning. There are apparently players willing to confirm the indemnification or 'side' letters existed and anecdotal evidence that HMRC have e-mails between agents/players/club confirming payments were non discretionary.

We will find out soon enough but coming on here repeating crap somone posted on FF as gospel and getting your fellow fans hopes up without foundation helps no-one.

Mac

p.s. Great work on here Ed, I bet you were looking forward to a bit of peace and quiet when the transfer window shut but its been frantic on here! Anyway Ed, what are your thoughts on the FTT? Any insider info? {Ed001's Note - you are so right about that, I was thinking I would have time to do all the things around the house I had put off in January. Now I have had an excuse to put them off even longer! I don't have anything on the FTT, the worrying thing is that all clubs have used shady methods to attract players over the years. Brian Clough used to turn up at the house of players he wanted to sign and stay there until he got the signature he wanted. The families would suddenly get a nice new house etc. I even know a few non-league part timers in England who have had financial incentives of a similar kind. A friend of mine was given a house as part of his deal to sign for a team which were then in the Conference, it was never included in his contract, and there were a few other little bits and pieces he got to persuade him to move to the area. The further up the pyramid you go, the bigger the hidden incentives are, I fear that football has left it too long to start looking into this. Far too many people in power have nothing to gain and everything to lose by the full extent of this being uncovered, so it won't happen.}

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Ed I find your response quite shocking.
You're suggesting that shady payments are commonplace, particularly in EPL, that it has been going on since anyone can remember and none of the authorities will do anything to clean it up because there's too much of it.
Truely shocking.
I have to disagree. All crimes in the UK are investigated and punished. {Ed001's Note - I am not saying anything about it being worse in the EPL at all. Perhaps you should learn to read.}

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HMRC will be persuing more clubs yet. Rangers is a bit of a test case. But it's not just the EBT stuff, it's that Rangers are behind on tax payments anyway which is enough to get them into this trouble.

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Timmy will be fuming when rangers are let off with the BTC! I am soooo looking forward to that! get it up ya! !

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Football is rotten to the core it seems Ed.

Do you think UEFA or FIFA will want to make an example of Rangers as a message to all the other clubs? For them it would seem to be a relatively easy way to send a warning without having to launch full scale probes and investigations into hundrends of clubs. I hope they don't for Rangers sake but if that is what it takes to clean up football then I could see the logic.
(For anyone else reading this this is not a rumour or something that to my knowledge is being considered, its just me thinking out loud.)

Mac {Ed001's Note - no, I think they will worry where it will lead, just look at the heads of UEFA and FIFA, do you think either of them have no skeletons in their closet? The only way something will actually happen is if the leadership of FIFA is taken off Blatter and given to someone with morals.}

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Ooft, libelous Ed! It really is a sad state of affairs when the governing body is run by such 'alledgedly' dubious characters. Noone will ever convince me that the decision to give the world cup to Quatar was a football led one. The temperature in Qatar during june and july is between 30 and 50+ degrees C. How anyone can expect quality football to be played in that kind of conditions is beyond me. Perhaps some of the UEFA/FIFA officials will like the place so much they will 'buy' villas/houses/mansions while they are there?

Mac {Ed001's Note - only libellous if not true, can anyone deny Blatter is a snake?}

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Blatter is NOT a snake! He's a weasel.

Me Here

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Haha, true enough mate. Who would you have take the reins from Sepp? Stewart Regan? I actually believe Regan is straight as an arrow just out of his depth here. I reckon he thought the SPL would be a quiet little backwater compared to the cutthroat world of county cricket and is missing the tea and crumpets!

Mac

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21 Mar 2012 18:51:40
Wish you lot would stop saying Kennedy withdrew his bid when he clearly hasn't, STV clearly stated that Kennedy is still highly interested and remains a bidder!

Believable32 Unbelievable14

Nobody will buy until big tax and ticketus - will you stop saying otherwise.

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Who said otherwise? I think others are upset cos of a lack of negativity regarding rangers just now.

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He's milking free publicity like others.

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Yes, he remains intrested but with and remember this with CONDITIONS. He is in this to make money, not save Rangers. Stop making him out to be hero, until all the hard facts are laid out to the bight light so everyone can see, just cast your mind back to alll the hooha when CW took over

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21 Mar 2012 18:04:56
Brian Kennedy has withdrew his bid because it looks like the Ticketus contract is watertight and has been signed by more that Whyte representing our club.The Americans are expected to follow suit when it is announced we can't walk away from Ticketus.

It's a f***ing joke lads it looks like it is Paul Murray or liquidation and Murray doesn't have the money to finance us going forward.The reason bids are still being accepted is because none of them so far have been good enough for D&P.These guys don't give a toss about Rangers,all they are doing is making sure that the creditors get as much money as they can.Thats their job.

Believable27 Unbelievable45

Theres four bids - a fifth expected so if kennedy and the americans drop out thats fine.

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Source?

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STV just confirmed that his bid is still in and he remains very intent and interested

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I have just seen on the news the he met with admin & super ally today to discuss takeover. DOES NOT SAY HE HAS WITHDREW BID

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If you dont pay your creditors someone has to......b

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Again Correct me if i am wrong but is it not ilegall to sell a companys assets to then buy said company with that money? if it is ilegall it doesn't matter how many people sign the contract as it is then a criminal offence hence the reason the police are looking into it aswell as other things involving craig whyte.

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He met with Ally McCoist today for informal talks. source Bouncey Rangers site, he's not out of the running yet, me thinks you're an enemy?.

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Craig Whyte bought the company on debt against future income.
It's the same trick P Murray is trying with the exact same company. U can't have it both ways boys!

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D & P cant put a definitive deadline on offers as administration leaves the club open to offers at anytime until a CVA or liquidation occurs hence the reason bids will continue to be accepted.

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Which part of rangers assets did whytey use to pay his pound?? ticketus money was used to clear bank debt nothing else,nothing illegal. keep clutching at straws.liquidation is a certainty !!

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Any takeover of Rangers at the time of why're takeover had to pay bank debt Lloyds as they had the controlling interest 18 million times more control than Murray in fact. So whyte takeover never happened till Lloyds was paid so if Ticketus money from season ticket sales was used then chances are its illegal and whyte prob dupped ticketus

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Maybe ,maybe not.but it the ticketus deal is illegal,surely rangers will still owe the bank 18 million and another long drawn out court case will need to take place? rangers cant afford this so liquidation will be the only way out.im not saying this out of malice.its just cold hard facts.

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21 Mar 2012 17:56:22
Have just read alex thompsons twitter feeds..He has had the usual its awe s**te comments..His response..Keep your insults till you see rest of his reports.lol..Has said any gers fan or rangers related person has been polite& helpful,yet when asks murray& whyte for statements on or off the record both refuse,so what are they hiding?He will report on whytes past cosy buisness dealing with duff& duffer(oh dear)...Cambell Ogelvie be squirming as he will be in for rough time off it too& more to come thurs frid sat,then filming at ibrox sunday..hope he knows what hes letting himself in for,lol..it shows how inept scots media is,when after few weeks he can get info they cant,or wont report,he will report there failings too...this aint mud slinging its just to get the truth out there for all real fans that are being fed lies& cover ups..about time...stevo

Believable20 Unbelievable10

Having just viewed last night's piece i think everyone with a stake in Scottish football should be very concerned. This guy has no axe to grind with any side in Scotland but clearly feels like he has his teeth in a juicy story. Not only is this potentially disasterous for Rangers but it makes scottish football look like some tawdry banana republic. Whoever you support surely everyone can see that this has been a PR disaster for the SPL and the whole Rangers situation has heaped shame on Scotland.

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Equally read Alex's tweets, you little liar stevo. Mind you his assessment on pmcg was priceless. Last nights show just rehashed old news, Scotland's shame is the obsessive behaviour by Celtic fans.

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Enlighten me on your little liar quote ya foool!!!last night was just the start plenty more to come,scotlands shame are rangers football club who have tarnished scottish football on a massive scale

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I've just watched the programme as well and not one bit of evidence was on show unless you call somebody saying "I'm sure there was payment's " evidence ..Look's like Phil3 names was barking up the wrong tree again ...

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I cant wait till this all swings around and slaps celtic in face. By the end of the year all their little secrets,tax dodging,cheating and dodgy deals will be coming out. And so will the real reason as to why John Reid left parkhead. The Roy and Robbie Keane deal,the image rights for the likes of Nakamura,Du Wei and Ki and the EBT scheme Juninho was payed with.

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Your above post is pathetic,all lies,as was all above board,dermot desmond makes sure to that,no dodgey d
or underhand dealings,try focus on dead as the dodo fc,foolish as you are i have symathy for real gers fans...only little secrets tax avoidance is from ibroke

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21 Mar 2012 17:43:06
It appears that sale sharks owner brian kennedy has been at ibrox today meeting the manager, are we to believe that d&p are confident the ticketus case will be won and brian kennedy will be the prefered bidder? if so, i for one will be a dissapointed rangers supporter, the bare fact is that the ticketus money was used to pay lloyds the sum of 18m to clear rangers debt, the right thing to do is pay them back which is what the blue knights intend to do, that is what i would expect of real rangers people, however if why*e has pocketed the other 6.4m then ticketus should take that up with him. its not only them who have fell into his trap, and im sure his collar will be felt sooner rather than later.......

Believable8 Unbelievable13

Ticketus deal was with whyte they bought tickets that weren't whytes to sell.

what responsibilities should rangers honour in this fraudulent transaction?

the fact that are so deparate to jump into bed with murray says all about their legal claim and much about murray.

isnt whytes biggest crime buying rangers with ticketus cash?

isnt that murrays plan?

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Kennedy withdrew his bid.

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What has Whyte done wrong with regards to ticketus?

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Ticketus deal is standard practice

Watford chief executive Julian Winter has told fans not to be concerned by the club selling a percentage of their season tickets for the 2011/12 campaign to a ticket agency.

The half-yearly accounts of the Hornets’ parent company Watford Leisure Plc and the cash offer document for the proposed takeover, which were both released this week, made reference to the agreement with Ticketus Services 35 Limited.

The club sold a percentage of their season tickets for the 2011/12 campaign to Ticketus in December in exchange for just over £1.5m.

The £1.506m, plus VAT, is secured against the sale of future tickets and is fully repayable before the end of June this year.

There is also an agreement between the two where Ticketus appointed Watford as their ‘agent’ to sell the tickets.

"Forming an agreement with Ticketus is a means of the club managing a cashflow issue," Winter said.

"We borrowed against a percentage of our projected season ticket sales back in December.

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Totally agree. We pay our way, and all future liabilities. So I hope SDM is listening to the fans. We want our club sorted out the right way! I don't have a problem with the ticketus deal, so long as its renegotiated, and whyte chased for the rest. Paul Murray is at least transparent, and Rangers through & through.

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RFC in this case is CW. It was Whyte who did this dodgy deal, one man, not the club.Ticketus were either duped, or went along with CW's plan. In either case thy deserve what they get,or don't get!
I hope Ticketus lose in court as far as our club is concerned, then pursue Whyte via his " I gave Ticketus personal and corporate guarantees underwriting their investment, the club and fans are fully protectedin terms of exposure. " I am personally on the line for £27.5 million in guarantees and cash statement. Get it right up him!
Stevie-A-Bear

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Think folk need to get real.
Whyte done nothing wrong legally!
Morally it was wrong, let this be a lesson to everyone.
Financiers are unscrupulous individuals.
They tie politicians up in knots with their underhand ways, no wonder the banks crashed!
We need a new breed of financial bloodhounds who are not tied to the established financiers club, to regulate against these financial terrorists..

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Think some of you are missing the point... the money still paid off rangers 18m debt, it would still be there if cw didnt take over, so we should still "honour" this with ticketus... its all about doing the right thing, something cw didnt as he srode off with the other 6.4m from ticketus. christ even when you try to do the right thing, your wrong. get a grip...

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The debt was not even an issue as unlike newspaper tabloids, the bank were being paid the correct amount at every month and legally could not have pushed back that agreement. If someon before taking over a company makes their case that they have cash based on assumption to a company they have not taken over or any of that companies assets they are according to HMS, breaking the law. It would have been easier to continue paying lloyds a monthly payment than the ticetus arrangement. If Ticketus deal is found to be illegal then it is up to them to proceed with reclaiming their money from the person who set up the deal, bankrupting Whyte! I understand we want to pay back all of our debts but if someon takes away your small monthly debt payments in favour of 3 large lump sums which breaks yer back then its time that person should be hung out to dry.

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To the last reply, your point makes no sense, lloyds demanded the money straight away, they knew there was a strong case for administration meaning they would only get 10p in the pound if they were lucky. (because of the ebt case).

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21 Mar 2012 16:34:46
STV website reporting Brian Kennedy (noted Hibs supporter) held talks today with both Ally and D&P at Ibrox and Murray Park. Nature of talks undisclosed.

Believable15 Unbelievable4

Kenny dalgleish and Danny mcgrain were rangers supporters as boys so I don't see the hibs thing as a problem

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Withdrew his bid based on Ticketus legal strength. Told them all face to face as he's that kind of guy.

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He doesn't like his bid being used as a legal pawn in court by D&P. Quite rightly so!

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21 Mar 2012 15:36:02
Just wondering if the killie v Motherwell game will be off on saturday for the death of Liam Kelly's fathers death? R.i.p mr.kelly

Believable5 Unbelievable21

I hope you are not asking for any reasons mate? If so thats low, we know the bearing that the result of that match can have on the league title...... please tell me you arent asking for any reason to do with that....

bluepeter

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Wishful thinking from you i think.

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It should be if the sfa/spl have any morals

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Usually not, but black armbands.

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Never known a game to be called off for the death of a players father

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Dont think so as a match is not usually postponed when a players parent dies

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By the looks of Kenny Sheilds on Sunday he is mourning Celtic loosing !

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No it wont.

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Well The SFA postponed an old firm game because a former celtic player died a few years ago?

So they might do the moral thing and postpone it

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To the clown that posted about the SFA postponing a game.Look at your own words,it was a former player.Although I am a Gers man I knew Phil and know his family.You are totally a disgusting human being to even bring that up.Sometimes I am ashamed to be associated with some of the Rangers fans.Get back under your rock.

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I wouldn't be surprised if it was , the SPL and Police might see it as a way of difusing the chances of serious bother occuring if Celtic win and take the title , as a Celtic fan i can see the sense in this , i dont think it matters where we win it , i will wait another week if it stops the bother , on the other hand it is really down to Kilmarnock and Motherwell to decide whether or not to play the game . Drewzybhoy .

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As a Rangers fan I would rather the game went ahead but as you said drewzybhoy should be down to Kilmarnock some papers reported the man collapsed at pitchside and K Sheilds was in tears Kilmarnock should be given the option

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21 Mar 2012 11:12:05
The BBC has been told that the judgment in the so-called "big tax case" involving Rangers is not likely to come before Easter

Believable19 Unbelievable20

Wonder what this means to the Administration as it now falls into another payroll month and delays potentially firming up bids without an outcome on the BTC. Really needs a positive result on Ticketus case and hope the SPL penalties aren't too dire to put off bidders.

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It will all drag on and on and Rangers will run out of time.
The club begging bowl can't even make a token gesture.

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They need to get it right and spot on. The whole world will nit pick and dissect this ruling. Law Schools, Universities, QCs, Lawyers, tax specialists, corporations, HMRC, Colleges, interested parties all over UK.
Campbell Ogilvie admitted he got £95k through the scheme and never paid it back. So it wasn't a loan.

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Campbell Ogillvie said he hadnt paid it back yet and if they start to treat soft loans as Tax Evasion then there will be more than one club going bust

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This is becoming a joke. Just ..... decide. Guilty or not simple

J

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The BTC is not a major issue - it will be included with any CVA that is agreed with creditors. The actual value is somewhat irrelevant if a p to the £ deal is agreed!! If the BTC goes against the club, the resulting value is added into the creditors pot....

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I got a loan from my gran haven't paid it back yet but she did say pay me back when you can son which i intend to do. does this make me a criminal or tax dodger

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'Campbell Ogilvie says he hasn't paid it back yet....' HUH.....
He's had the money for 10 years, if it's a loan where's the loan agreement and interest conditions.....70 odd people over 14 years and not one has repaid anything and a broke club isn't chasing them with reminder letters. If its loans Rangers are owed about £300m with interest as the tax on it is only £49m!!!

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Ogilvie also said he had paid into the scheme in the first place -which allowed him to take out the loan!
Its obviously not cut & dried as some our friends from the East might want to think, but the longer it drags on it can only get worse clearing up everything else

bill72

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Fair comment if indeed these were loans, why has this particular club not made every effort to claw back the money, surley the individuals who all borrowed, and are all loyal gers fans would make every effort to repay, especially under the current situation. or is it simply the case of pretending these are loans, which never have to be payed back, this then can be interpreted as payment in kind, thats why Hector sees this is tax avoidance or avasion.

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Can understand how they are calling it a red herring even if we win case HMRC has right of appeal and round we go again or we lose we have right of appeal and round we go again almost certain to end up in a settlement and before some DHIM says it it was Whyte who said he wouldnt appeal and the administrators have a duty of care to the creditors they would launch an appeal

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If it was bona fide loans there would be loan agreements with interest and regular repayments.
The Debtors would be listed in the annual balance sheets as such but never were. As they were never classed as debtors by Rangers.
If all these debtors paid their loans to rangers tomorrow it would bring in £300m why is D&P not chasing these debtors?

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The HMRC current agreed/ unchallenged debt of £15m and rising cannot go to CVA it's PAYE and VAT.
The BTC cannot accept pennies in £. HMRC will be laughing stock and no senior politician will interfere with due process and risk their career for Rangers.
IT IS Liquidation. It's THE ONLY solution. But Assets have to be sold to pay the debts or call in all the EBT 'Loans'.

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SDM has already admitted the use of EBT's that is not what it is in question it was legal.The main appeal is based on the amount that HMRC say is due in tax and if Rangers deliberately evaded making payment, this is what under SDM's stewardship was being challenged. At the moment and until proven SDM reckons the EBT's were issued in accordance with how other EPL teams worked the scheme that, of course, doesn't make it right, and this is what HMRC are trying to prove and by using Rangers instead of a team in the EPL they will find out there-selves if they have a case and are justified pursuing EPL clubs, the post above is spot on as not only Rangers existence depends on it a whole new precedent will evolve or not from the eventual outcome of this case. Even if the FTT favours Rangers HMRC will appeal which will prevent the "Elephant from leaving the room". I have also read this morning that the Police may be closer to getting involved with CW this can work two ways and may not necessarily be a good thing as CW may choose to prove (in his world) he has done no wrong, if he indeed has the charge on the assets these will be frozen and will not be able to be sold of until there is resolution through the courts, unfortunately time is not in favour of Rangers and would mean liquidation as they would simply run out of funds. However he may choose to let go in fear of major consequences and retire in shame to the South of France as a recluse. Ticketus remains a flip of the coin I am afraid but the Fiscal may decide that Ticketus were foolish to get involved with an individual who did not own any ticket rights at the time of financing future ticket sales but on the flip side Ticketus may have that legally covered, a waiting game!

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Soft Loan?

get real this was theft

What other non player staff were did the same?

All, Most, Murray?

What do you think?

Oglivie - Rangers board member, SFA member, its so corrupt throughout!

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The reason the big tax case won't be resolved until after easter is because the new laws come in on April 6th, meaning any company forming a newco will take the debt with them.

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EBT = TAX EVASION.
Clear cut no ambiguity.
Pay your taxes in full, sell Murray Park and do it and seek redemption for your tax crimes.

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Rangers fans have been hopelessly let down by all current and previous directors, most of whom owe loan money and interest and will never repay. Jail the remuneration committee.

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Martin Bain was on £608k per year plus bonuses/ benefits. That's London CEO of a company with four times the turnover and a huge profit. Criminal.
Poor Gers fans, ripped off for years.

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Kinda gd news it means its a split decision

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To the:

"EBT = TAX EVASION" post above:

Celtic have admitted using them......and dont give me the " we only did it twice" guff........you either did or you didnt......so would you care to add to your list of Tax Evaders?.........or are you just hoping Rangers die?...........on the evidence of Sunday, Rangers dont even need to be around for you lot to fail!.......54 & A Whole Lot More!

JG Bear

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EBT = TAX EVASION?
EBT'S are` legal
tax evasion illegal.

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This isnt a great surprise, the administrators will be working with the bidders and hmrc to try and come to a CVA. This involves a large amount of back and forth so will take a while. And before celtic fans start saying that paying only part of what we supposedly owe HMRC is not acceptable, it is done day in day out by other companies, often for much higher amounts than we are dealing with. HMRC do deals, all the time.

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Fans need to boycott everything until resolved. Don't be conned further for more money from millionaires who were on EBTs. (Walter and Ally and Sandy Jardine for three).

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It is cut and dried.you have cheated the tax man.pay what you owe,and act like real men.does the word yellow ring a bell.

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Its like the bloody poll tax all over again! Using Scotland as a testing ground, they wouldnt get away with that in England.

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I am glad you've informed us its cut and dried. Now the big question is how much exactly are we to pay hmrc? when have we to pay it by? Have we appealed? Have they? Hmmm not so cut and dried as you think.

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Maybe even next season.

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Does anyone know why Rangers are the ones being chased for the tax, doesnt an individual person pay tax? should hmrc not be chasing the players who used the ebt? as a club doesnt pay income tax, the player does? or are most of the players international so cant chase them?

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... but NOT paying the loan back is also a tax scam:
Works like this:
Rangers pay money to Trustees for the benefit of the employee. After this point its no longer rangers money so repayment to rangers is impossible.

Cash is advanced as a loan from Trustee to Employee: The loan is never repaid, but the debt is held outstanding by the EBT trustees until the beneficiary dies.

When the beneficiary dies, the outstanding loan counst as a liability against his estate is valued, meaning that less inheritance tax needs to be paid by his estate when it passes to the beneficiaries of his will... even though the repayment subsequently never happens. The debt stays in the 'estate' long after the employee is wormfood, always existing - but without ever being repaid.
The only party in a position to demand repayment is the Trustee - but he has a responsibility to act in the best interests of the beneficiary(ies) of the trust. In this case that's the employee... and its in their best interest to not have to pay the money back - even when they are dead!

So Hector is screwed over twice: Once on the PAYE&NIC when the EBT advances the loan, and then again, on inheritance tax when he passes it on to his children.

EBTs may - in certain circumstances - be legal, but when used for tax avoidance in this way they are no way ethical (my opinion)!

And when set up solely for tax avoidance in lieu of wages, they are not legal.
This is the crux of HMRC case against rangers under David Murray.

And on the basis of evidence that seems to exist, it is a very strong one.

To summarise: If you're a taxpayer - you've been screwed by David Murray.
If you're a taxpayer and a Rangers fan, you've been screwed twice by David Murray.

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On the issue of appeal, if rangers lose case, they must pay all monies due immediately even if they are to appeal.
This would in my opinion lead instantly to liquidation. I also believe that rangers have exhausted all the appeal processes? This is last chance?
If rangers win, the tax man can and will appeal (my opinion), this leave rangers is the same situation as current.

No buyer can progress with this as an issue, so next step is anyone’s guess, long drawn-out process.

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To the poster saying if your a taxpayer youve been screwed by david murray and if your a taxpayer and a rangers fan youve been screwed twice by david murray. I would let david murray screw me again for all the 9 in a row memories, gazza, laudraup, mols. Names that the green mob could only dream about. We had superstars in our team and I for one would go through it all again to see them grace our beloved Ibrox turf..... oh yeah there all coming back next week to do it all again RTID

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21 Mar 2012 09:32:22
Brian Kenedy is the bidder who will
pull out if the ticketus debt stays in
force. Also he is prefered bidder at
the moment, with Souness to take a
lead management role until club is in
a secure position.

Believable28 Unbelievable30

Hi fellow bears whats ur prediction for sunday

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The Ticketus case is unchallengeable as P Murray knows, as D&P knows, as everyone knows.....the deal was with Rangers FC football Club and is watertight as Ticketus deals with broke clubs all the time. This is a smart ploy by one reluctant bidder to get free advertising only.
The biggest condition is the Big tax case, this busts all bids.

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The bidding process is null and void as the two latest bids are outside the deadline and have advantage over the earlier bids. This would never be allowed during corporate bidding for a large construction contract.

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The last two bids are illegal and over the deadline. Any of the first 3 bidders can rightfully complain and if they really want rangers cheap should do so.

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Friday was the deadline for indicative bids and all were conditional and as such no rules have been broken

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Ticketus deal has nothing to do with Rangers. Whyte did not own Rangers when they signed the deal Whyte paid of Llyods the £18 mill but then broke the purchase contract by not putting the agreed amount into the club as when buying a house if you pay the deposit but not the mortgage the house gets repossessed if you canny get a buyer in time and you lose your deposit as for the bidding process a blame DP for using big words that DHIMS cant understand as for Whyte he has 2 option walk with his £ or be Jailed for fraud

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Just a thought, but if CW mortgaged Ibrox seats/tickets, is this still illegal. this system is used throughout British football, however it is only recommended as a short term fix. If seats were mortgaged, then CW can do what he pleases with money, if he chooses to reduce existing debts or re-finance he can, although guaranteed on this occasion, his motives are questionable. The mortgage company MAY then have some claim to the mortgaged seats in the event of non-payment. It’s a messy situation, I’m sure there are legal issues to resolve, however CW seems to be very familiar with company administration and liquidation.
It’s maybe also worth mentioning, the contract is not legal, perhaps, until money is exchanged, could be paperwork was signed prior to CW owning Rangers, but money was only exchanged after. As I said messy with counter claim after counter claim, it probably best to prepare for the worst and be grateful for anything better.

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I think you are underestimating Whytey Boy. He has not been found guilty of anything illegal yet (I reckon if it was going to happen we would have heard about it before now). If that remains the case he will still own 85% of the shares and be the preferred creditor.

All this stuff about him only putting in a pound so not being owed anything seems very optimistic.

I bought a lot of shares in a well known oil company when they were at rock bottom and when I sold them they were worth a lot more, Whyte's situation is a similar if much more extreme example of the same situation.

Mac

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I cant wait to see Souness planting the flag at Cowdenbeaths Central Park with Donald Findlay QC quaffing on his prawn sandwich from the stand!! Liquidation...Bring it on!!

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By law the Administrators cannot actually set a deadline. Just to clarify. A new bid can be made by any interested party at any point when a company enters administration. This is what happened to several buisnesses such as peacocks clothing, woolworths (who still exist online) etc. They set a deadline to get the ball rolling to see what interest there was to avoid a prolonged administration process. Kennedy would be a better deal or Club 9 that the Blue Knights old boys act. The old boys have failed us for years its time to move on,

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Whyte and Ellis are liquidation practitioners. They have liquidated dozens of companies owing HMRC millions in PAYE and VAT. It's what they do.
They know their trade and have never got caught out in favour of the company (in this case rangers).
Although HMRC is chasing them this time for full repayment or bust.

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Point is deal was signed on 7thApril he did not take charge to 6th may he needs owner of assets permission to make the deal go through either SDM is lying 42500 season ticket holders have signed and posted letters without reading them or Liyods TSB rep on board cleared it (extremely unlikely as they stood to gain financially and if the takeover then fell through they would have been implicated in any investigation surely they were not that stupid )

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HMRC are very very familiar with Whyte and Ellis.
What I don't understand is that any high street shop credit check with a credit agency would have thrown Whyte up as dodgy. Yet Murray sold Rangers to him for £1 and some promises without even a high street credit check.

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The date of the deal is inconsequential. Whyte can do a loan deal with anyone based on possible future ownership or expectations.
The risk was Ticketus' that he may or may not get rangers and they took it.

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I think you will find CW has not done anything illegal, he is too experienced and would have known administration( access to accounts) was a possibility with the BTC.
I believe both SDM and CW knew a CVA was inevitable. thats why CW never put a dime of his own money in, and used the paye-vat as working capital. CW will make a few bob on selling his shares because HMRC have stated he must go before asa condition of agreeing to the CVA.

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Kennedy pulled out today.

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Nonsense, he can make a deal subject to gaining control of rangers which he did and now owns.

nothing illegal - when one company takes over another company, quite often parts are immediately sold off, obviously negotiated in advanced.


you guys need to stop floundering around trying to pull apart a legal deal because it does not suit you.

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Bidders can arrive and pull out whenever they like. The Friday deadline was really just a way of D&P saying they'll start considering bids, not stop considering bids.

BK might come back in. PM might pull out. Anything can happen during this phase.

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