Rangers Rumours Archive December 06 2012

06 Dec 2012 14:57:24
CHARLES GREEN and the Board of Rangers Football Club has noted speculation regarding possible outcomes of gate distribution as a result of Rangers' decision not to take tickets for the Scottish Cup match against Dundee United at Tannadice.


The chief executive said: The Club was contacted by Dundee United requesting us to waive our rights to the share of the gate under Cup Competition Rule 46(c), this was declined.

"It has been decided by the board that any proceeds from gate receipts due to the Club will be donated to the Prince and Princess of Wales Hospice Brick by Brick Appeal and Erskine charities via the Rangers Charity Foundation.�

'Old Charlie' Green is a very shrewd man. How could Dundee Utd possibly complain when we announce that our gate share (funded entirely by tangerines) is to go to charity? It's nice that we have a chairman with balls. Like some, there are times when he would be better keeping schtum. But, on this occasion, and many before, he is forthright in his approach and quite correct. God bless you Old Charlie!

Good on him. This is a great chairty which help 1000s of people in scotland every year. People forget their is more important things to life than football.

Im a celtic fan and I see this as reasonably fair but why dose he decide the charity, in my opinion DU should decide and if not why not your own fans, totally fair would be to allow fans that wanted to go, go but CG seems to be more intrested in appeasing the supporters associations than the normal fans. most of my rangers supporting friends go to games but are not affiliated with these associations and disagree with the boycot
DB77 {The Ed039's Note - I think it is because Rangers are associated with certain charities and he would have to be seen as supporting these charities, otherwise what would the point be)

Well done if the money goes to charity,but to praise green for it dont think so-if it happen i will prob be the 1st time he's said something and its happened-remember adidas and dallas cowboy deals-we await,we will have �30m in the bank by june- thats a no no,we will sign 10-12 players on pre contacts on �20k a week then tell us the wage bill will be 33% of the income it doesn't add up

To the fifth post wait till next season then if we don't have a sponsor, then moan about Adidas deal, people have been moaning about there's no share issue, because they haven't heard something everyday about it, then in papers today? Rangers had �25 million worth of pledges, that got cut to �17 million, so yes well done Charles green, we thank you for saving our club.

Celtic supporter here..............the charity thing is a great idea with the hospice being built so close to lbrox and supporting Erskine hospital who do a great job. Think its time to draw a line under blaming everyone else and their dog for where Rangers are now. David Murray never became a multi millionaire running his businesses the way he mis managed Rangers and has still as yet came out of all this blameless.

I class gesture by a class chief exec and a class club. Now i hope Stephen Thompson and Dundee Utd match this offer as if a third division club can give all money from gate to charity surely a spl club can do the same. CMON Dundee United do the right thing, the world is watching

Boycotting a charity game.... disgraceful.

And if it goes to a replay I'm sure Stevie the arab, will do likewise with his share ;-)))

Bil72

Its a great jesture of CG to do this so dont you think he should retract his previous statement and sell tickets to that fans that want to go to the game.

Ian

I'm personally a big fan of Green. If anybody thinks the charity gesture is anything other than a game then they are fooling themselves. This is simply another knife in the chest of Thompson and DU. How can DU complain now that charities will benefit.

Call me cynical, for me this is all about Green sticking it up whoever he can when he can. Yet Rangers look good making a donation, clever clever stuff. I for one will never forget how our club has been treated.

GDog
RTID

Agree with other posters here, the only honourable thing for DU to do now is follow likewise. All money from the game should go to charity. In the summer, DU were in the vanguard for Integrity in football. Let them show they know what it means. Rather than squable over the proceeds of their biggest game of the year, be magnanimous and send it all to good causes!

07 Dec 2012 21:32:29
A class gesture? A class gesture would've been paying your debts before your club folded & a new club formed!

I may be being nieve but Dundee utd would t have this game down as a banker for cash. They've already said they've made more cash with the return of the Dundee derby. Boycott is just plain pointless and have zero effect on Dundee utd's projected finances.charles green knows this and is just playing up to aerating fans. In the bigger scheme of things it makes no difference to utd and only rangers will loose out financially.

Does the boycott cover a replay? I see cheeky Charlie pandering to the knuckle draggers with 'his' choice of charities. Or was there a poll on sevcomeedja about it.

Why should DU follow suit and end up out of pocket? They have money that they have to payout to host the game! And let's remember that would include possibly a larger police presence because of all the ****e that CG has stirred up!
I also believe that DU should pick the charity as it is CG refusing to take is allocation! This would be good money for a charity in Dundee to be given!
AND I would be very surprised if ALL of said gate money ended up at its intended charity from Green! We seen last season with rangers conveniently arranging to take charities from their intended destinations to keep the club going!
A wonderful gesture!! But I believe it to be one given not from the heart but out of spite! But saying that, I believe every other club should be looking at this example for future sake! Novo Nono

Let's not kid are selfs on this will come back to bite green as Celtic green brigade already talking of a full boycott of rangers if we meet ,as the old saying goes lets sleeping dogs lie ,stupid stupid move by green and all that's jumped on the band wagon to try and get ther loyalty noticed by the fans , this will come back and haunt rangers and when it does don't try and blame every body else and not the ones high up that make these stupid choices ,this has put rangers back a year at least well done ,watch this space stupid move

Why should DU follow suit and end up out of pocket? They have money that they have to payout to host the game! And let's remember that would include possibly a larger police presence because of all the ****e that CG has stirred up!
I also believe that DU should pick the charity as it is CG refusing to take is allocation! This would be good money for a charity in Dundee to be given!
AND I would be very surprised if ALL of said gate money ended up at its intended charity from Green! We seen last season with rangers conveniently arranging to take charities from their intended destinations to keep the club going!
A wonderful gesture! But I believe it to be one given not from the heart but out of spite! But saying that, I believe every other club should be looking at this example for future sake! Novo Nono

no rangers fans, no larger police presence needed as you say, why would rangers let dundee utd pick the charity, its rangers money a think wel do that ourselfs thanks, and as for your " I believe every other club should be looking at this example for future sake! " a cant wait for the day dundee utd or any other scottish team come to ibrox for a scottish cup tie and give their half to charity haha

06 Dec 2012 01:28:25
Heard a strong rumour today that BDO are going to court to demand payment of the money that SFA have withheld from us. This is an asset of oldco and as such must go into the pot for the good of creditors. SFA cannot just keep the money, it is not theirs to keep.

This may cause real problems for SFA as don't think they have that money.

WTF are you talking about? Jeeez! Make your mind up!...... Hmrc cannot chase oldco for money.... Coz they are dead, with no money? .....but the sfa still can give us money... Coz it ain't dead?????
Make your tiny minds up pleeeeease!!

Briggs

The liquidators are chasing every penny owed to the old co in order to pay the creditors the best possible amount

Mr Briggs, yet again you totally dont understand a very basic point, this money withheld by the CFA, sorry SFA should have went into the creditors pot.It really is very simple.Anyway why do you bother with Rangers sites? Jeeeez

Why so offensive Briggs. It's quite easy. HMRC cannot reclaim multipal millions from a company that isn't generating income. It will have to settle for a percentage of what is left in the pot. If this money was due to oldco, it should be made available to creditors and would in turn be beneficial to HMRC, the face painter and all those poor wee sousl who were gangbanged by the big bad gers.
Or is that too difficult for you? You seem to be saying "I owe you a tenner but your no getting it cause you owe this other guy a ton".
Still too much. okay. me no like Rangers.

wait.

Got it.

OP it was the SPL that withheld the money (�2.6m) from Rangers for finishing second, not the SFA. I am not surprised to hear BDO would pursue this angle of enquiry as it seemed a strange one at the time but with everything else going on it was quickly forgotten about. If the SPL can prove they have spent the money paying off Rangers footballing debts or any other debt CONNECTED to Rangers then they will not have a case to answer, if they can't then BDO will chase them for it and probably get it, football rules do not apply in a court of law. The key will be whether there is a rule within the SPL statute (in existence before this occurred) which allows them to legally retain the payment due if they deem it justifiable to do so. Even if there is such a rule then they will have instantly lost the 'sporting integrity' moral high ground as they will then be just as guilty as Rangers (in principle not volume of debt) for purposefully shafting the Rangers creditors out of money due to them.

Briggs. You need to make your mind up too mate. Do you genuinely care about what is in the best interests of the creditors or was that just feigned concern for doing the right thing like the 'sporting integrity' nonsense was? The creditors were all we heard about for the first few months of this saga. Now a genuine opportunity may have arisen whereby they may be entitled to a substantial payment withheld by the SPL and suddenly you become less interested in the creditors. Why is that? This action, if it unfolds, should be unanimously supported if you truly cared about them. Oldco aren't dead (yet) and as all non-Rangers fans on here keep reminding us BDO have the power to do what they feel is necessary to ensure the creditors get what they are due. �2.6m of withheld monies (which I thought was withheld to ensure footballing debts were paid - i.e. distributed fully by the SPL to ensure payments were met - not kept by them as it was heading into a black hole and they had a better use for it) would make a real difference to how much the face painter, newsagents, etc that were continuously thrown in our faces will receive. If you prefer that this money is retained by the SPL simply because a rule states that they can then you can no longer go on about the 'poor' creditors receiving peanuts, gratuitous alienation or any of the other ideas that have been thrown around designed to increase the size of the creditors pot as you would clearly not care about what was in their best interests if that were the case.

Brian

If BDO are chasing every penny, does this mean they will also be chasing players etc who got loans (EBTs) ?

Quite right too. And unless the money was used to pay Dundee United, Celtic, Dunfermline, Hearts, etc etc. then it should go to oldco, to pay creditors. I believe that the reason the money was not paid was that if Rangers were liquidated they Automatically were ejected from the SPL. This means that as they were no longer members they are not entitled to prize money.

If it goes to court I'm not sure that Oldco will definately win, but they do have a case.

Rangers officially did not enter liquidation until the season ended though as they would not have been capable of fulfilling their remaining fixtures otherwise so that cannot be used as a defence by the SPL. Rangers completed the season so remained entitled to the payment to add to the creditors pot even if they had ceased to exist the following day. The SPL have no defence here at all.

Brian

Is this not the same money that Charles Green claims was withheld from his company and he's laying claim to it too. It would be interesting to see what happens should it get to court. As far as I can see the money was won by the oldco prior to liquidation so it belongs to them, as do any transfer instalments owed and any cut of TV sponsorship or UEFA pool money. Charles Green claims all of that too based on the transfer range of the old clubs SFA membership to his company. With regard to EBT loans, these would be repayable to the trust that made them, not directly back to oldco.

Brian if that was the case Oldco would have played in the SPL at the start of season. When and at what point did oldco cease to be a member of the SPL and on what conditions. Was the money used for other reasons?

These questions will be answered firstly though discussion between BDO and the SPL and possibley later in court of law. As I said there is a fairly good case for BDO to pursue on behalf of the taxman. But it far from clear cut.

Just saying it does not make it true

"Just saying it does not make it true"

In principle you are right and I am only offering an opinion just as those who said Rangers would lose BTC, the vote was about sporting integrity, Walter and Ally were on EBT's etc, etc offered theirs. As you say, just saying it does not make it true and that has become more and more evident over the past few weeks, but we can offer educated guesses now and again and get one correct. I e-mailed the SPL about this very topic last week as I was interested to see what reply would be given. Needless to say I am still awaiting one.

On your other points the Oldco couldn't have played in the SPL this season as there was a vote in June (after the season had finished) and the transference of shares between Oldco and Newco for SFA membership and the share that went to Dundee. That will most likely be the when and at what point Oldco ceased to be a member unless the SPL knowingly allowed one team to start the season and another to finish it in their place which would surely open up yet another can of worms. As for the conditions, that question formed the basis of my e-mail because as far as I was concerned, and I am not alone in thinking this, the payment was originally withheld to pay existing football debts which clearly did not happen. If Rangers had failed to fulfil their fixtures then the SPL could have done as they pleased with the money, but because Oldco managed to see out the remainder of the season then an explanation needs to be given as to what happened to the money and why. That we can at least agree upon. I said, in my opinion, the SPL have no defence here at all. It is a guess but one I would stand by as they haven't responded to imply otherwise.

Brian

Op here, you are quite right it was SPL, I was a bit worse for wear when I posted this. I understand that even if SPL have used the money to pay "football debts" that is not allowed. The money earned by oldco (which this was) has to go to creditors of oldco. There cannot be a situation where one person or club gets paid and the rest get less. There were many opposition fans who were horrified that the face painter and newsagent etc did not get paid and it was explained at the time that these people could not get paid as preferential creditors. If that is correct and I believe it is then SPL cannot pay "preferential" clubs. However I understand that one of the SFA's conditions for granting us a licence was that "football debts" from oldco are paid. I think Green has confirmed this and it could be that SFA will have to demand payment back from SPL clubs, good luck with that, but both SPL and SFA may find themselves in court over this.

Yous kept money from the taxman that was not yours to keep
Goes around comes around {The Ed039's Note - Have you been hiding under a rock, did you not hear the majority verdict delivered in favour of Rangers. Wait I forgot, 2-1 was virtually 50-50 anyway)

To those saying it wasnt the sfa but the spl that kept the cash....it was BOTH 'organisations'!!

The sphell kept the prize money for Rangers finishing second in the league...the sfa kept the money due to Rangers for their players playing in the Euro tournament.

People....please try and do at least a little research before you come on here spouting garbage...yes its a rumours site, but its not a garbage site.

Can only hope it's true, we love to see Regan and SFA getting screwed!! LOL

Ed 39 ONLY in some of the cases did it find for Rangers.
Tam {The Ed039's Note - I didnt say it wasnt, all I said was the verdict when in Rangers favour)

"Ed 39 ONLY in some of the cases did it find for Rangers.
Tam {The Ed039's Note - I didnt say it wasnt, all I said was the verdict when in Rangers favour)"


Ed....the verdict could have been returned as 99-1 in favour of Rangers and we would still be called cheats and tax evaders. Sometimes no matter what, you just cannot expect these kind of people to accept the truth.....best to just ignore them and let them get on with their hatred....it will catch up with them all in the end :) {The Ed039's Note - I am not a fan of people trying to put words in my mouth from either side of the divide, if I feel a response is warranted, I will respond, no matter what)

@"To those saying it wasn't the sfa but the SPL that kept the cash..."

I tend not to diss my own too often but you go on about a lack of research turning this into a 'garbage site' whilst in the post you bring the tone down to gutter level and equate yourself with the 'sevco' brigade by referring to our current top league as the 'sphell'. If you are that informed I would have expected you to be able to rise above that sort of thing. I wasn't aware the SFA withheld money from the Oldco too, that is why I raised the point about the SPL (which I am assuming is worth a lot more money anyway) so thank you for that piece of information. I stand corrected.

However, if you have researched it as you suggest you have and clearly know all the answers then tell us exactly how much each body owed us, where it is now and, if it has been spent already, on what. There is a lot more 'garbage' spouted on here than mere misinformation and you are clearly not exempt from it yourself. You can correct people without being disrespectful toward them in a personal manner, irrespective of the team you or they support, and the last time I checked good manners were still free and worth something in society.

Brian {The Ed039's Note - Great post BTW)

Yous kept money from the taxman that was not yours to keep
Goes around comes around {The Ed039's Note - Have you been hiding under a rock, did you not hear the majority verdict delivered in favour of Rangers. Wait I forgot, 2-1 was virtually 50-50 anyway)

The Ed - The EBT result went in favour, however CW withholding payment of 11 million plus in tax and vat constitutes keeping money from taxman in my humble point of view. EBT result or not Tax and VAT were withheld which most people tend to turn a blind eye to.

"{The Ed039's Note - I am not a fan of people trying to put words in my mouth from either side of the divide, if I feel a response is warranted, I will respond, no matter what)"

I wasnt trying to put any words in anyones mouth, i was merely stating an opinion, my opinion.
I have been abused in the street, called a thief, a tax dodger and worse by people who refuse to believe the truth, this is why i ignore them. I was merely suggesting that perhaps its time that more did this rather than rising to what they say.

The SFA are withholding �330,000 that is due for player appearances for the Euro tournament....the only link i can find when i google it is a Celtic forum.......

http://cybertims.net/index.php/forum/MAIN-FORUM/11372-SFA-withhold-UEFA-cash

The SPL are withholding �2.6 Million...source, your post on this thread.

I have no idea where this money is or what it has been spent on.

A copy of the e-mail I sent to the SPL.

To whomever it may concern,

Please can you shed some factual light on a contentious issue as I am an active and regular participant on a Rangers forum and there has been some debate on the site recently regarding the payment withheld by the SPL at the end of last season and what happened to it. The forum is inclusive and wide ranging in its reach with fans of Rangers, Celtic, Hearts, Partick Thistle and even East Fife supporters, to name but a few, regularly contributing to it (the sites apparently receive over one million hits per day collectively). However, although personal opinions are shared, none of us can categorically state where the money (�2.6m appears to be the general consensus of opinion?) has gone and what it has been used for. My impression was that the payment was originally retained in order to pay Rangers outstanding footballing debts but that does not appear to have been the case if Dundee United, for example, are still awaiting payment for an outstanding debt related to the Oldco. Charles Green was refused the payment as it was due to the Oldco and the SPL decreed the Newco was not entitled to it as a consequence. Neither did it go to the Oldco, who were still in administration at the time, to increase the potential value of the creditors' pot. If the payment figure originally due to Rangers did not actually go to Rangers (in either guise), did not go to their creditors, and has not been used to pay pre-existing Rangers footballing debts what has happened to it and who has benefited from it? A response to this question would be greatly appreciated as given everything else that has gone on in the current era of sporting integrity and moral righteousness regarding Rangers and in particular their creditors, what actually happened with this money has, to date, been overlooked. By answering it you would be providing a public service as we are currently going round in circles on the site through lack of credible information.

Respectfully yours in anticipation,

Brian

Cheers for that. I have just had a look online and can't find it either. The source for the �2.6m figure was from the BBC Sport Scotland's website (sorry I don't have the link - it was on their website last week but no longer appears to be there). However I did find a further piece in the Telegraph through a different link which states the alleged figure (�900,000 not �2.6m as the BBC suggested) and the apparent reason as to why the money was withheld whilst also mentioning money due from Uefa as you suggested.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/9392758/SPL-withholds-placement-money-to-Rangers-to-settle-Ibrox-outfits-outstanding-debts-to-member-clubs.html

Some great reading on this thread guys. Im looking forward to seeing if the debts have actually been paid or not, was there any leftover that may "mistakenly" been left in an account somewhere? The truth is needed by all sides of this sorry story. CheltBlue

You are wrong ed. Rangers owe vat, ni and employees tax deductions. That was why hmrc liquidated them. The big tax case is another issue and is still ongoing. {The Ed039's Note - The big tax case is closed pending an appeal, do your homework please)

Rangers football club was placed into administration as a consequence of refusing to pay PAYE/NI. The big tax case was irrelevant at this point. Charles Green is wrong in saying a CVA would have been achieved if the BTC result had been known at that time. In fact HMRC still held 40% of the total debt. Therefore the club and company was liquidated and a new club sought admittance to the SFL. At no time despite a re-writing of history were Rangers voted out of the SPL. So to whom should the SPL have paid the money surely no-one is suggesting Charles Green's new club. If BDO secure this money it will most likely go to pay HMRC's outstanding debt.

Grout

Grout. Read the posts more carefully mate. No-one is claiming on this thread that it should go to Green, clearly it shouldn't. It is all about the creditors and as Rangers (Oldco) finished the season, completed their fixtures and are still not officially liquidated yet then the money due should have went to the creditors. That is the point made repeatedly within this thread. If BDO secure this money it will go into the pot and HMRC will receive their share of it, not receive it in full as you imply. BDO were HMRC's chosen administrators from the start but they don't work for them, they work for all the creditors.

Brian

Thanks Brian, my point is Charles Green is suggesting it should go to him. In fact did he not accuse the SPL of stealing "our money". I am glad no one on here supports this idea. Clearly the SPL view The rangers as a new club although they may not be willing to say this publicly.

Grout

Grout of course its our money if its supposedly paying dundee utd, our money, our debts

Grout. The cynic in me feels the SPL tried to shore up its own finances by pulling a fast one as they knew they would be facing a hit financially. It suited their case at the time not to give it to Green and they felt they had a better use for it than giving it to the creditors as the money would remain within the Scottish game. The reason given was to pay off Oldco's footballing debts. The prospectus lists the old footballing debts as being paid by Green/RFCL (NOT the SPL) to the tune of �2.8m with negotiations continuing between Green and the three remaining clubs awaiting settlements. Green may well have a right to make a claim for it also if BDO decide to investigate it (I would still prefer the creditors to receive it personally) as the SPL initially withheld it on those grounds and then a matter of weeks later colluded with the SFA on insisting Green took responsibility for the Oldco's footballing debts as part of the five way agreement for acceptance of membership. Then we heard no more about this money.

Brian

p.s. We won't know about the SPL's true opinion until we get back there but have a quick look on the official SFL website at the page listing the Div3 clubs, see which team name is listed there, when they were founded, what they have won, etc. The SFL have clearly made up their minds on whether or not we are a brand new club or not. Similarly on the SFA website it lists Rangers as playing in the 3rd Division of the SFL. No 'The Rangers' or 'Sevco' in sight I am afraid to say. ;-)