28 Apr 2015 10:34:28
With regards Celtic's inability to win treble after treble after treble since Rangers were demoted several things strike me. Most obviously the sheer arrogance that it will be automatic because Rangers are poor. Don't any of these other 40 teams (or more) come into your consideration? That seems odder still given how much Rangers are struggling with them on a near week by week basis.

Celtic were awful during Rangers nine in a row, Rangers didn't win everything, indeed they both won only 2 Scottish Cups in that time. Celtic won no League Cups, other teams won 4, Celtic were scarcely 2nd in the league too that's how bad they were.

Now in the current time where Rangers, like Celtic then, can still field the second most expensive team in the cups Celtic seem on the way to having won 5 out of 9 trophies, 3 leagues (presumably) and one SC and 1 LC. It's not great, I'm the first to admit it's not great but let's look at the flip side of that coin.

Rangers have had 6 bites at a cherry without Celtic, 3 leagues and 3 Ramsden/Petrofac cup attempts, 2 wins out of 6. It is abysmal given the financial disparity which exists on a far greater scale than any of Celtic's 5 of 9. So when it comes to laughing off Celtic's lack of trebles just remember that Rangers lack of non-premier league doubles has been frankly appalling in the same time frame and has been a far poorer return. Not to mention the fact that it hasn't always been SPL teams who have stopped your domestic cup efforts too, if I'm correct short of Dundee Utd twice and Celtic once it has all been lower league teams that have prevented Scottish Cup or League Cup progress and even then your squad costs a lot more than Dun. Utd so really only the Celtic defeat in the League Cup this season shows "value for money".

So laugh off Celtic's lack of trebles via arrogance or ignorance if you wish but trust me, on better days you scarcely did better and in current times you are doing a damn sight worse.

Gaz I

1.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 11:36:00
Difference is my Timmy friend that during Rangers' nine-in-a-row run Celtic were still in the same league as Rangers, whereas we've been in the lower leagues unable to do anything about it and having lost virtually all of the squad we had in 2011/12 when we were still gubbing you. Never mind, 54 and counting.

2.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 11:41:41
We won Cup winners cup and League cup during your nine in a row, and were second 5 note times than your were during ours. even for a one eyed Sellik man,your lack of factual accuracy is breathtaking. Oh and you went 6 years without a major trophy between 89/95.expect no less from the "if you know the history mob". BTW we beat Sellik 1-0 in1970 League Cup Final.

3.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 11:49:38
So in cups alone Doiger, regardless of which league you are in Celtic have won 2/6 cups agreed? The same as Rangers have won against the non SPL in the 3 divisions and 3 Ramsden/Petrofacs, I ask again, who has had a better return? In both cases, as I mentioned, and you chose to ignore, both were still the second most expensively assembled squads so in cup terms divisions don't come into it.

And if Celtic have missed an opportunity to win 4 of those 6 cups why hasn't the 2nd most expensively assembled club picked up the mantle, surely they should be first to profit from that?

4.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 11:54:31
Ed never posted my reply to your contention that all other teams had honest journeymen during our 9 in a row. maybe it's because my typing was all over the shop due to the paroxysm s of laughter affecting me. Sellik had DeCanio,Thom,Van Donkeydick, Cadete,Aberdeen had Charlie Nicholas,Dutch world Cup player Hans Gilhaus,Peter Nicholas. Dun Utd had Dailly,Brewster McKinlay,Killie had Paul Wright, Motherwell had Cooper,Lambert,McKinnon. all of whom got big moves ,either abroad or to English Premier,or to Sellik.and that's just a few of the players around then. your contention holds much more credence now especially in the league you are about to win!

{Ed001's Note - I thought I did post it up? }

5.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 11:59:21
Septic fans always have an excuse haha

6.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 12:12:12
Tbh they should have won a treble but you can't slate a team for not lol they Stoll won the double.

7.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 12:16:32
Lani at no point did I make any reference to Celtic's nine in a row, nor did I make any comment on Rangers team during it which was a very good team by the way. You failed to mention they also got to a European final in 67 but ho hum. So if anything here is breathtaking it is your inability to read and understand what folk are talking about. I was talking about Celtic being rank rotten 89-98 followed by Rangers the past 3 seasons at no point did I reference any other time period, understand that and begin your point again please rather than frothing from the mouth about something I didn't write.

8.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 12:23:35
And there aren't "honest journeymen" around now? My point is and has been ignored or not understood by the frothing masses is that during one period of old firm dominance there is no given right that all domestic cups will be hoovered up by the dominant team, it never happened in any other period of dominance so why should it be expected now?

Secondly, even in similar confines as in one team with a huge budget advantage over the rest Rangers in Division 3, Division 1, the Championship, 2 Ramsden Cups and one Petrofac Training Cup have amassed a paltry two trophies, so the comparison is there for all to see, Celtic aren't dominating at the top end and you sure as hell haven't dominated at the bottom end.

9.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 12:44:47
The frothing masses not getting your point perhaps highlights the lack of one,or any cohesive end game to your rambling first post,which I followed with an equally rambling post just to inflict the same pain on you. comparisons can be invidious. What is certain is that Celtic are going backwards, and will continue todo do until they have the competition and cash to arrest that decline.if Rangers get promoted,that's progress.and perhaps you better hope we had

10.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 12:50:38
Gaz, I'm not really seeing your point about our wage bill, if you look at the BPL the team with the lowest wage bill is in the top 10, yet teams with higher wage bills are below them. it comes down to how the club is ran and some clubs fork out more than other(because they think they can) However with the talent Celtic have had in the past 3 years, you should have won a treble. however your problem is you blow your own trumpet before a ball has been kicked. Celtic have players that the likes of Arsenal, Man city and many other BPL teams want. no other SPL team have that. so again I don't see your point about us? we had poor management, a guy who liked to do long balls against teams with stronger and taller players than us.

11.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 13:12:41
Onlyshowaround I was going to make the comparison to the EPL (I presume you meant EPL) short of Southampton overachieving and QPR (who should have been 8th) underachieving the report actually said in the most part money spent was reflected in the league position, unfair of you therefore to highlight it's one discrepancy no? The fact remains Europe wide and I dare say true of S. America too etc cash spent tends to get success, shortish term "nouveau riche" success a la Chelsea, Man C, PSG, the emergence of stronger Russian teams in Europe or "old money" success Bayern, Man Utd, the old firm, Real, Barca etc, the fact remains cash maintains these teams or once in a while due to massive investment brings along a new big player for a while, even Gretna should it can have short term success. I'd say most Scotttish clubs would have been delighted with Rangers squad the past three seasons and certainly over the moon with their budget, so the comparison is there to be made, if Celtic don't win those cups you'd expect Rangers to be there or there abouts.

Also bear in mind even in bookie terms you were still fancied, Motherwell top of the SPL as they went to Ibrox in the LC both teams 6/4 (evens at home v ICT in the next round if memory serves), Rangers at Tannadice in Scottish Cup both teams 6/4. You have been underdogs in less than half a dozen games in 3 seasons so money talks in every regard bar on field performance evidently.

12.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 13:20:16
Lani this cash we need to arrest this decline, I may be completely mistaken here but I keep seeing us posting annual profits, now forgive me here, and I appreciate that's not how you do things at Ibrox, but isn't that a good thing and rather contradicts this need for cash you are talking about? Personally, profits and a fairly unfettered run at the CL while you stumble through endless terrible Championship results, I'm failing to see the downside.

13.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 13:36:45
I hate to say it but against spl opposition we done rather well actually. Against United twice we went into self destruct. Also Southampton have not over achieved at all. they have the quality to be were they are. Then again mate your club compared to the likes of Aberdeen, United, Motherwell, is like comparing Man city to say Southampton or Liverpool. you have much more money and should be doing better. you can't blame it on management, as you do and did have a decent standard of coaching and management. We on the other hand did not. This is why we haven't won the Ramsdens, as Ally had no idea what tactics were, and acted like the place was a holiday camp. nothing we the fans could do about that. again I still don't see your point? Our excuse is poor management, you seem to know a lot about Rangers, so I can hazard a guess that you probably watch any games you can as well. so you'd more than likely know that.

14.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:06:38
Gaz 1

Ally's failure to win the petrofac cup was one of the reasons he is no longer in the job. Most Gers fans know how poor he was and by the time he left hardly anyone would defend him. It was unacceptable not to win that trophy in the 3 years and the manager went. You have had the easiest opportunity to win the treble in the last 3 years and failed. All we hear is what great football your team plays yet you lost twice in the champions league qualifiers and could only manage 2 wins in the Europa League out of 8 games. You also failed to beat Inverness when you were leading 1-0.

15.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:09:00
The point is there is a far greater gap in resources between alloa and rangers than there is between ict and Celtic , so perhaps people in glass houses should not throw stones . At the start of the competition Celtic were 54 to win the Scottish cup but rangers were odds on to win the petrofac cup , so which team has let there fans down the most?

16.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:22:08
Diminishing profits mate,or are you at odds with your man Lawell?.an unfettered run at the qualis for the CL perhaps, is all you can hope for after last season's multiple exits from various competitions in Europe. Celtic have basically got the minimum they should have got over last 3 years, minus Rangers,and at a time when Scottish club football is recognised by all but Bhoy fantasists as being at an all time low.and the Barcelona result apart,you have done nothing remotely near what Rangers achieved in CL 1993. you let the Biscuit tin mentality take you to the brink in the nineties,you changed,so will we. take time,but not enough time to let you catch up in trophies.

17.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:30:34
Onlyshowaround if it's only management, namely Ally then why didn't it improve immediately under McDowall? And after that McCall hasn't exactly set the heather on fire either so blaming all of it on McCoist is simplistic and nonsense. Signing policy, player attitude, all of it counts, board room hassles I don't doubt haven't helped too but surely Miller, McCulloch, Black, Boyd, Templeton, Wallace, etc etc on their worst day should have been good enough for one Ramsden by now, more so when as you say yourself they do seem to perform v SPL teams, come on you killed your own argument there.

This is attitude more than bad management any day of the week. Cash spent in the last 3 seasons Rangers return is far far worse than Celtic's, it's not even up for debate, our team's domestic titles have led us to the CL twice in it's own more than paying the player outlay, you spent £7m to win £30,000 prize money in Division 3. And that is why I find the treble guffawing hilarious when you can't even win a double that you are vastly overwhelming favourites for every season.

18.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:54:45
Man Lani you truly are a bitter aren't you? Diminishing profits is it now, I thought we had to arrest a cash decline, make your mind up please? Making profits at a time when there is no cash in Scottish football makes it all the more commendable no?

It was never going to be an easy transition into the CL this season with a new manager, personally I wanted Moyes for that very "course and distance" reason. Deila loan signings and only buy come the summer were pretty poor, but what about the 2 he made since, it's fair to say Armstrong and Mackay-Stevens are looking good value. So overall now he has his feet under the table and the players buying into his ethos I think we are not too bad and should hopefully negotiate the CL qualifiers.

We are still back to net returns however, if we have got the minimum return we should have had, how by comparison are you faring? The guts of £20m spent on three season bringing in a Division 3 and Division 1 title, good, bad, indifferent? Or downright bloody scandalous given we couldn't win 4 of the trophies too? Thoughts Lani, Rangers marks out of 10 on their bare minimum for the past 3 seasons?

19.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:56:01
Well said Fab1 but I warn you logic and stats aren't well received or even understood by some in here. :)

20.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 15:02:29
Stewie I agree we haven't been great I said that in the first post but by comparison Rangers 2 trophies from 6 for lower teams only is utterly abysmal and it made me laugh that folk who think the treble should be automatic can't see that throughout Scottish football not everything is as cut and dried as it seems.

Even a very good Rangers team (the nine in a row team) won 7/18 domestic cups, Celtic only won 2, so half of them went elsewhere, that's one trophy better than Celtic's 2/6 currently in percentage terms. It is not that easy and it's being highly dismissive of the rest of Scottish football to presume that while one of the old firm is in decline that it's an automatic 3 trophies a year guaranteed.

21.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 14:49:46
Interesting to see if Van Dick or Guidetti or Denayer are around to benefit from the club's profits.you might be making money.but you're not spending it. Other teams are not getting better,Celtic are coming closer to their level. Aberdeen have had a poorer season compared to last year. a cup ,a semi,and 3rd place.and United are the same. Europe is the benchmark, and we',all see if they make inroads there. Or at least get less indictments than they did last year.

22.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 16:02:35
Gaz or Fab,or are you one and the same?What's your take on the difference between diminishing profits and cash decline then.same thing really,and bitter?. Hmmmm maybe I should use another poster name to show my placid side.did you write speeches for John Prescott in a past life by any chance?

23.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 16:41:26
The fact of the matter Lani is I am a realist and I am very happy with our trophy haul and performance in Europe since rangers were liquidated, can you hand on heart say the same of your team if not perhaps it's them you should worry about .

24.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 17:21:25
So you were you as happy with Strachan's roughly analogous domestic haul (with Rangers in the league),and his incomparably better Euro results?. your team has underachieved mate, almost as much as Rangers.and I like Deila,think he is a far better holistic manager than Lennon,who has been "fun oot" in England.but he won't be able to match Strachan in Euro competitions unless he gets cash, and he won't get it in that quantity until Lowell feels he can loosen the purse strings.and that will only come with Rangers back in the premier ,generating a better TV deal.

25.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 17:37:34
Therein lies the difference perhaps Lani, we are making money and not spending it, you aren't making money and are spending it and ultimately shaft 276 creditors. However I happen to agree with you they should have spent more, buy from a position of strength, right now the philosophy seems to be we don't need to to win domestically therefore we won't and I'm not thrilled by it, however your Viv Nicholson approach (look her up if you need to) is hardly the template for success is it? As for Denayer, Guidetti and Van Dijk I don't there is chance we will see any of them next season 2 will return to their parent club and one will be sold on for a big fat profit, there's that word again, profit, jeez it just keeps appearing when we mention Celtic. :)

Oh and for the record two guys sharing a similar view doesn't mean they are one and the same person shocking as it seems and to further clarify Fab1 has a 1, I have the letter I not a 1, one is a number the other is the ninth letter of the alphabet, I know how confusing similar but not exact things can be for some but trust me they are merely similarities.

26.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 17:37:49
No it's ok, we'll just leave the worrying about us to you, the obsessed

27.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 19:03:21
Cheers noddy great input to the debate. Lani the money is not there because of more than rangers demise , if your club gets to the spl then you better hope whoever is in charge realise that the security of a club is more important than trebles or European glory . We won't be spending 6 million on players again or giving out 30-40 thousand pound a week contracts whether you are in the league or not and with that comes reality, we should be qualify into the champions league maybe three out of four times and maybe qualify to the last 32 one out of four times, having 40 or 50 thousand paying fans is Childs play if you don't get the tv money to go with it and even when you join us in the top league it will still be a pittance compared to Italy , England , Germany and Spain . Clubs outside the big leagues are all suffering and it will be along time before a team from any country from outside the big four wins the big cup again .

28.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 19:09:24
Noddy you may have jumped in late here but the initial premise behind this thread was Rangers fans mocking Celtic's lack of trebles, that's Rangers fans TALKING about Celtic tht prompted it, which is a touch contrary to your highly unoriginal obsessed jibe.

Lani, it's hard to say regards Strachan, he had bits of O'Neill's team left but had to downsize, he still got cash for Nakamura, Boruc etc and had some experience in the highest paying league on the planet, his sources, scouts etc would be impeccable at that time hence being able to pluck Naka and Artur out of relative obscurity. Deila had none of that, wouldn't know too many players outwith Norway or indeed Denayer and Guidetti who he was lucky enough to see while watching Man C training, totally different world. They have underachieved, I said that in post one lol. And it's nice of you to admit which I was trying to get all along that Rangers have underachieved even more which made all the treble talk rather empty, hell Rangers can't even manage a lower league double in three attempts, would a bookie even have offered a price on that not to happen?

29.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 19:16:32
Not convincing me with the "two guys sharing the same view" bit mate. understandable that you want to distance yourself from , er, Fab, as further on down, he/you has just been filleted by Nippon bear. ach well.best wishes to, er, both of you in the future.

30.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 19:48:14
Same bookie who offered odds on Sellik going out of Europe 3 times and winning league by less than 15 points maybe? points . all things are relative. Celtic are not the team they were last season, in the same league. we found it tough in the Championship, but could still go up. so that will be progress of a sort. I'd put money on(all this money/bookies/profit talk, strangely familiar. was it Gaz, or Fab. hmmm.)Sellik not qualifying for the CL proper. and I'll get good odds on it. might even put cash on them missing the treble. but for now, I'm off to calculate how much Sellik have paid out in wages over the last 4 years. might ask Nippon bear to help me.but using Fab's example, I'll take one player's wages, chuck in a factor of two and then multiply it by the number of players in the pool. should do it.

31.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 20:43:20
Hahaha Ed want to nip this me and Fab1 being one and the same, Lani I've been on this site longer than most of you I don't think I need an alias to amuse myself. To be honest Lani that "forensic" way of calculating Celtic finances would be about par for the course for Rangers accounting of the past 3 years.

A club gets £30,000 to win Scottish Division 3 should they
a) Construct a squad worth £7m?
b) Pay a manager £740,000?
c) Give their CEO a £300,000 bonus for promotion?
d) All of the above?

You go and work it out Lani, see if the maths adds up, CL money gained, net players sold, extra revenue from Euro gates, 5 trophies won (pending this league). Verse £20m or so spent on a god awful squad that won two divisions then stalled, can't win any of 3 attempts at a non top division trophy, has accrued the guts of £20m in losses had a share price dip that would give deep sea divers the bends, has been kicked off the AIM, has a squad with no real resellable value.

By the way Lani I used to manage a bookies if you get good odds on anything that means the contrary position is likely yes? You have grasped the concept to that degree I'm hoping, so in essence you are saying the bookies reckon Celtic will qualify for the CL then yes? I agree they should, doesn't mean it will happen however and if you put your money where your mouth is and profit from that good luck to you. Hopefully it will make up for the countless ways Rangers have conceivably burned you in bookies this season.

32.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 21:05:19
Gaz your wasting your time with Lani there are guys on here who you can debate a point with , who accept good points with grace and make good arguments for theirs , this guys just a bitter wee kid who instead of debating what's at hand wants to score points and drifts off on bitter tirades, you will notice he hasn't actually even tried to put forward an argument about whether winning a double in the top league is seen as a failure in his eyes but being 30 points behind hearts in what is effectively the second division and getting knocked out of a cup full of part timers by a part time team isn't .

33.) 28 Apr 2015
28 Apr 2015 21:16:26
Wasn't part of that chain that went bust was it?. not actually a betting man,but managing a bookie's doesn't mean you can use semantics. good odds in my favour,obviously.and you're right,you don't need anyone else to "amuse"yourself. do you? Pedantic rehash of shock/horror Rangers stuff won't change the fact that Celtic are not as good as they were last season,and have lost ground incrementally over the last 3 seasons.why not take your stuff to Mr lawell,who has been honest enough to admit that Celtic have lost profit during Rangers absence. mind you,he never ran a bookie's ,did he?

{Ed039's Note - Last post on this thread please ......... boring now)