20 Feb 2017 20:19:11
Watched 20 mins of non league Sutton and they look a far better team than us. Arsenal would be 3 up against our shambles of a defence in that time.
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20 Feb 2017 20:19:11
20 Feb 2017 19:45:34
have to defend dave king here. he has invested money in new facilities at Murray park, new hospitality suites and upgrading facilities at ibrox.
he is also dealing with Mike ashley in the courts. so he has done a lot in the background.
20 Feb 2017 19:39:52
if you had to choose winning the Scottish cup or finishing second what would it be?
20 Feb 2017 20:16:14
Winning s ottish cup
20 Feb 2017 15:46:18
Living down south, have listened to many matches this season on the radio. Its getting monotonous now listening to us being second to every ball, no fighters in midfield, and apparently no management at any level who can't see this. This is on top of the need to sign good central defenders 18 months ago. I dread it when I hear the opposition are swinging another ball into our box. When will someone at the club wake up and sort out these problems!
20 Feb 2017 17:31:58
2 CBs def won't sort the mess out. Having 2 FBs who sit in and tuck in when required won't sort it either.
Our midfield is root of problem, they are too lightweight and just not good enough. they can't keep the ball, when they lose it they can't win it back, they offer zero protection to defence and they definitely don't add to our goal tally!
Back to basics shape wise is needed asap.
3-5-2 or 4-4-2 with little complications. aye the movement was nice to watch against part timers but it's completely ineffectual now if we can't put the effin ball in the net and keep clean sheets.
20 Feb 2017 12:31:00
Apologies in advance as this may be quite long.
Cyclical seems to be the phrase of the moment regards the Old Firm, a blind, almost palpable belief that what goes around comes around and as sure as night follows day, Rangers dominance will follow Celtic dominance. It happened before right, so it's sure to happen again?
We have two nine in a row periods to base this assumption on, in both cases I believe there was maybe some cause for optimism as the dominated team, had something, however small, that gave cause for seeing "light at the end of the tunnel".
From 1966-1975 I think two things were of significance in keeping Rangers fans "encouraged" during that time period. Firstly Rangers were a very good team, as well as still winning a number of domestic cups they appeared in two European finals during this time, winning one of them.
Secondly, if memory serves from mid to late 70's stats Ibrox capacity was 75,000, Celtic Park was 67,000. Revenue figures I'd imagine were not incomparable and even a run in the European Cup wasn't necessarily more lucrative than a CWC or UEFA cup run, indeed more often than not who you played would have been of more significance than what tournament. For all this Celtic dominance it most likely wasn't reflected in revenue.
You would have needed a microscope to have saw Celtic's chink of daylight from 1989-1998 from the average fans perspective. The team was rotten and contrary to Joscro's sketchy recall of a few months back the team was by no means "formidable". I honestly laughed at that. They were runners up in the league twice, TWICE! Aberdeen were by far Rangers keenest rivals during that time, Celtic finally showing some appetite for the fight in the last two of the nine.
Financially the gap was just as big "For every fiver Celtic spend we will spend a tenner. " said the bragging David Murray. Of course it turns out "we" meant the Bank of Scotland as "living within your means" was just something other clubs, other businesses, had to do.
Celtic's light at the end of the tunnel certainly wasn't coming from either of these two avenues, on the park, in the piggy bank, we were miles behind it seemed. It took foresight and vision to see where Celtic's underlying asset was. And it took a wee Scots/ Canadian to put it into practise. In short, we were underdeveloped, dare I say a sleeping giant, closer to comatose it felt at the time but nonetheless underachieving was the byword of the day. Sound investment, Fergus promised, would see the club on a good footing and for his efforts in the middle term he would leave with a tidy profit and to this day his legacy endures.
Sure the team could have been improved a bit more, it was only actually good about once in his five years, but as every new stand emerged you saw a dream become a reality, the club was investable with solid foundations and not the basket case it had been under the Kellys, Whites, and the like. And his enduring legacy? Making Celtic Park 10,000 seats bigger than Ibrox.
This season an Old Firm ticket costs on average £49, those 20,000 extra seats we have over those two games net Celtic near a million pounds more than Rangers earn from the two corresponding Ibrox fixtures, indeed since 1999 in league games Rangers have had a higher average attendance higher than Celtic's in two seasons, Mowbray's and the shambles that was last year under Ronni.
Our underachieving and underdeveloped stadium was our sellable asset remarkably, Rangers had did all this some time before which maybe lay the groundwork for the dominance that followed but McCann breathed live into the club with a legacy that pays off to this very day.
And so to the current void between the two clubs and the potential for a cyclical return. In a recent interview Warburton mentioned the word unprecedented and he was bang on, this is completely uncharted waters regards this rivalry, regards Scottish football. The gap on the field has never been bigger, 30 points after 25 games, unheard of. The value of both squads is a vast chasm, either Dembele or Tierney might in time be worth the entire Rangers squad, honestly I don't think that's bravado or exaggeration on my part.
The revenue gap is every bit as one sided and unlike the Celtic nine in a row of the 60's and 70's the tournament you are in regards Europe plays heavily on a club's finances. Celtic announcing mid season profits of £16.1m while Rangers require another soft loan to see the season out, there is no financial cause for optimism anywhere, I'm not saying it to gloat it is simply the hard cold reality of the situation.
In 2011 Rangers had Ibrox, Murray Park, a squad worth maybe £25m-£30m, European football guaranteed, a huge fan base and much stronger control of their merchandise and WERE STILL SOLD FOR ONE POUND. When those millions of assets yield you a solitary pound the game is up. And you haven't made one step forward since, overspend after overspend, rotten boards, rotten managers, rotten players. In 2011 winning Scottish Division 3 netted the winners £30,000, the next season your manager was on £825,000 and he bought Templeton for £750,000! To this day I think Bill Miller was the most honest person who even looked at Rangers during this whole shambles, remember him? "Yank go home" and he said you had a £30m black hole and that was probably the most honest financial assessment anyone has gave you since the Bank of Scotland signed off on that first loan.
But as mentioned earlier Celtic's on the park and financial plight during Rangers nine in a row should give you optimism right? Well actually no, because we know Rangers were playing with the banks money, we know UEFA Financial Fair Play will look into every nook and cranny of expenditure and investment, the minute you play in Europe next season you are under their microscope and if losses aren't absorbed into stock by these creditors (and seemingly £11.3m of the soft loans are due payable in November) then you are in trouble and even then you have to get the losses down by millions to even pass their most rudimentary controls. This all impacts the quality of the squad, the management team, everything. And finally, unlike Celtic pre McCann, you are kind of "maxed out". There isn't an underdeveloped stadium nor a top of the range training facility to be built, there is nothing that your "honest" investor would see as a potential money spinner. As the old airline joke goes "What do you call a billionaire with an airline? " - "A millionaire. " Anybody putting money into Rangers in the short term does so for the love of the club and with the full knowledge this cash isn't coming back, if you get someone good luck to you but any recovery and genuine challenge to Celtic won't be based on anything cyclical from previous periods of dominance that's for sure.
20 Feb 2017 12:57:44
That arrogance may come back to bite you though. Time will tell.
20 Feb 2017 13:18:38
What arrogance? I referenced perhaps the reasons why it was cyclical before and explained why in my opinion they don't apply this time round, that isn't arrogance, that's an appreciation of things currently. The fact that you shot none of it down speaks volumes for that. I don't expect you or any Rangers fan to like it or agree with it but at least call it what it is and it isn't arrogance.
20 Feb 2017 13:47:22
Gazo, that is quite a post. One of the best written I've come across and your argument can't be faulted. To compound matters for us of course is the 7 year notice period on the retail deal with Ashley and this represents a huge financial blow to the club.
20 Feb 2017 14:13:57
The small part I skim read reeked of arrogance to me. Perhaps come off the pedestal next time. All empires die, just remember that.
20 Feb 2017 14:25:40
Thanks kfraser I appreciate it. Yeah that one costs seemingly £4m-£6m a season and his ability to block the resolution on a new share issue does you no favours either. That's the thing about arrogance, it suggests in a sporting context that you either dismissed or ignored your opponents qualities and abilities, with regards the dysfunction at Ibrox I was spoiled for choice in what was hamstringing the club most hence me being amused by Cullins interpretation of it.
King is as transparent as Johnny Tightlips in the Simpsons, you need a nomad, need to get that resolution passed and get the shameful McCoist to vote for it this time, the stadium needs sizeable repairs, I think the D. O. F announcement effectively paints the club into a corner and rules out any number of good managers, need a scouting system, top to bottom root and branch clear out required and right now we don't need to be that good for it to continue for some time, if Celtic give Rodgers carte blanche for the next few years we are off the sunset before Rangers their infrastructure right, there just seem to be too many variables weighing Rangers down right now.
20 Feb 2017 14:35:41
Ha it is funny you mention that Cullin, I was going to say the same thing, formerly an environment with two powerhouses now reduced to one. I was going to mention Rome and Carthage, so its nice to know you have a historical appreciation. Now I'm presuming you have the modicum of sense required to appreciate your empire is a damn sight closer to death than mine right now, yes? Skim reading small parts is maybe your problem, did you skim read "wealth off the radar" about Craig Whyte and think "Whew nothing to concern me here then? " I think its that lack of detail that has lead to your head being firmly ensconced in sand.
20 Feb 2017 16:04:01
Well Gazo, verbal diarrhoea indeed! No sensible Rangers fan, and I have been won for 53 years, would deny that the gross overspending and financial mismanagement of the 90s in particular led eventually to the downfall of our great club but who could of foreseen crooks like Whyte and Green? The Ashley deal is bad and is again as a result of the crooks previously in charge. Fact is Celtic were lucky in 1994 when McCann came to the rescue at the last minute. Our knight in shining armour ended up being Craig Whyte! I think it was cruel that Rangers were consigned to the bottom tier of Scottish football - you just imagine that happening to Arsenal or Man Utd in the English leagues. Celtic have also been rather fortunate that Rangers were dumped thus as we were about to win four titles in a row when the bubble burst. There has been no competition for them at all and the regular money from European football has allowed Celtic to build sizeable reserves of cash. Rangers must try and attract major investment very soon and get back in to Europe. So don't get too smug just yet. Rodgers has also landed lucky - had he taken over five years ago he would have struggled. Scottish football needs a successful and powerful Old Firm and there would be no glory in Celtic winning 10, 11 or 12 titles in a row. Empty successes. Rangers will fight back, on and off the field so enjoy your 'success' while you can. If getting pumped out of Europe at an early stage every year for the next 10 years is your idea of success, how sad!
20 Feb 2017 16:16:27
Gazo, you have reverted to type. Please don't start to assume you know my thoughts though. I couldn't have been concentrating over the last 5 years or so.
20 Feb 2017 16:35:31
Doiger. Celtic went 4 points clear before administration. You can compare Celtics 4 titles to that of rangers from 89 till 93 as celtic were pants and Aberdeen and the rest were no better.
Brendan Rodgers has been lucky?
Qualified for Cl won league cup 24 points clear, over a 100 goals scored and it's only Feb. It was only 6 month ago the going for 55 banner and a new 2 year deal was handed out to the best thing to happen to rangers for years.
20 Feb 2017 16:43:05
Doiger it may have escaped your attention but prior to the ten point deduction in the 2011/ 2012 season Rangers had blown a substantial lead by New Year but read it as "we were about to" if it keeps your delusion going. It's amazing that at every turn we are just lucky and you are the constant poor victim, despite buying en masse into White - In Craig We Trust, ring a bell with any of you? In signing off on Green despite Dave Bassett telling you every which way he was going to rip you off and now finally you have the glib and shameless liar, saved from jail simply due to the depths of his pockets. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me, I dunno if there is one for buying into a third consecutive dodgy regimes nonsense but I think more than luck plays a part, blind insane obedience perhaps.
Two more points Doiger, did you give one monkeys about the competitiveness of the SPL from 1989-1998, you know, when Celtic were second only twice? And secondly I question your validity as a "sensible fan" as you claim you've been WON for 53 years. And yet you spell diarrhoea correctly, good old predictive text eh?
20 Feb 2017 16:58:29
Cullin when you described me as being arrogant weren't you making assumptions? A claim all the more derisible as it came after a small skim read, behave yourself or jog on. If you want to seriously debate any points I made, make any claims of arrogance, read the whole thing and get back to me, if you don't want to then clamp up.
20 Feb 2017 17:25:35
Gazo. WON was a Freudian slip and yes I can spell. I can also spell delusional and arrogant, two words that I'd think apply to you. And predictive text doesn't work on my laptop. It may have escaped your notice that ordinary, sensible fans don't have much say in who buys their club do they? Nobody asked for Whyte or Green or Ashley to get involved. They didn't actually conduct a ballot to ask us fans what we thought. You are right that I didn't care about the other teams during our 11 title wins in 12 years from 1989 to 2000 and I couldn't care less about Celtic now either other than that we catch them sooner rather than later. In season 2011/ 12 the financial woes started to raise their head and undoubtedly led to McCoist and some players taking their eye off the ball, causing the slump in form. Enjoy your worthless spell while you can and keep taking the pills.
20 Feb 2017 17:34:59
Many points noted above are accurate. But I would like to add a few of my own.
Rangers were not sold for £1! They were sold for £18 as I mentioned on another post since this was the agreement on receiving the assets for a nominal fee if £1.
Rangers last financial year made an operating loss of around £3M. This was stated after depreciation which totalled nearly £1.5M. This is not a real cost and is not allowable for tax purposes. £1.5M loss with no retail, European or substantial TV money is not a bad result.
We have no external debt. The only debts held are convertible loans which will eventually be converted to shares.
Celtic to use your example now have a stadium at capacity, training ground and every piece of income available to them at the minute but have yet been to achieve total domestic dominance and win the treble. Add to this a dismal attempt at the champions league they really don't have much else going for them.
Rangers still have a fair bit of climbing to do from rock bottom and we WILL take our place back where we belong at the summit of Scottish football.
20 Feb 2017 17:53:42
Doiger I would genuinely buy into you being a sensible fan if your thoughts on anything Celtic related could be passed off as more than simple luck and all the other garbage you wrote, while I appreciate you couldn't care less about Celtic at least have the decency to familiarise yourself with some facts about them when you ramble on about them, for example those early European exits you are hoping for, you are aware that Celtic have still been in Europe after Christmas in 2 seasons of the last 5, you do know that right? Which in Scottish terms is generally accepted as a decent season Europe wise. I'm presuming you also know Rangers have won 1 game in Europe in their last 22. And of course fans can't be blamed for boards etc but there is no need to blindly support them and dismiss all outward criticism either but if you want to delude yourself further regards the collapse in 2012 you knock yourself out but take a few of those self prescribed pills first I'm sure they may be required for the amount of garbage you are trying to swallow in one go. "Worthless", how very childish, my ball and nobody is playing till I win, 53 years a fan and 5 minutes spent as an adult.
20 Feb 2017 18:01:47
Gaze: Can't actually remember calling Celtic formidable, maybe that they had fairly decent players during some of that spell, but I didn't go back a few months to refresh my memory, that actually makes me laugh.
20 Feb 2017 18:14:55
Where did they dig this one up from? And he says he isn't arrogant. Time to move on Gazo. A lot of people knew the financial problems at Rangers before you came out with your newsflash. Now you are just looking to argue with anyone who doesn't bow down to your perceived superiority. Move on, getting very tedious.
20 Feb 2017 18:23:15
Gazo thank you for a contribution that is not tainted by bitterness and hatred. Much of what you say makes sense however I think you are missing one key item. In my view there is a ceiling which a club in Scotland can reach before they come back down towards the others, and I think Celtic are getting pretty close to that. In that sense it is cyclical, I just cannot see a scenario where domination is infinite.
20 Feb 2017 18:24:09
BigBear if I'm right the debt to Lloyds was £85m at one point, why sell when it's at £18m then? And the reason is it wasn't £18m it was that PLUS the elephant in the room, the big tax case which as history has proven was never going to go away quickly, that is the reason only a charlatan like Whyte would be attracted any fit and competent investor wouldn't touch Rangers with a 10 foot pole till it was settled let's face it.
Sure £1.5m ain't bad but if I'm right you are allowed £3.4m over three years, right now your debt (in UEFA's eyes) will stand at that £1.5m plus the previous two years, come the next set of accounts the oldest one falls off obviously but short of getting that resolution passed, as I suggested, then that debt gets added. Rangers are within the amount that can be converted which is good news for them.
I'd look at Celtic's lack of dominance in another way, sure we have been poor in some of the cups the past 5 years but you'd imagine the second biggest spending club might have won a few due to our dismal efforts, how has that worked out for ya? :)
20 Feb 2017 18:26:43
Scrojo I have no idea how to look back through the site, it stood out because it was so insanely nonsense, the fact that I recalled your name tells you how memorably bad it was but maybe saying Celtic were crap then didn't meet your point, so you just told a wee porkie, a lot of that happens in here. :)
20 Feb 2017 18:37:19
Cullin I was known as Gaz in here years ago, I was on this site in February 2012 on the very day Whyte went to court asking some of you why you were celebrating Whyte getting his choice of administrator chosen. It seemed madness to me. So I'm not exactly new to the site or the issues.
20 Feb 2017 18:41:41
The big tax case amount was a provision for the potential debt which never came to fruition. The company was sold when the debt stood at £18M because the the bank put Murray under pressure to do so following on from the financial crisis. This was the only obligation upon purchasing the assets which had to be fulfilled with the whole ticketus fiasco.
Here we are with the 2nd biggest budget garbage. If money win trophies the Next Celtic would have had a treble every season for the last 5 years. How has that worked out for you?
20 Feb 2017 18:47:41
Cheers Cannon, I have no idea how long it will last and I intentionally didn't pick a number and your ceiling point is a valid one but I just can't see it doing the usual turnaround with the chasms being as they are on so many fronts. Of course Rangers will still win trophies but dominance and a duopoly is maybe a way away. I didn't know this till this week but the team that has won the Scottish Cup the third most after the Old Firm is Queens Park, they won the last of their ten the year after Celtic won their first and the year before Rangers did the same, who would have saw that coming back then, things change, dynamics change, that's all I'm saying. Cheers again Cannon.
20 Feb 2017 18:48:52
Well said gazo great posts my friend
20 Feb 2017 18:49:33
Like your insane nonsense Gaz, maybe not quite.
20 Feb 2017 19:09:14
BigBear only one person was getting left with the debt if it ever did come to fruition, Whyte, and he wasn't bothered admin was his game plan all along, wipe the debts out asset strip the good bits, move on. Only thing he didn't foresee was Green shafting him.
Yup we weren't great in those cups, but then again 1 challenge cup in four efforts given the financial advantage is frankly scandalous. But of course money doesn't guarantee victory, you prove that on a near weekly basis.
20 Feb 2017 19:15:00
Cheers agent C, joscro I use facts and check details, maybe that's where we differ? :)
20 Feb 2017 19:34:35
So you kind of just shat over your previous reply to me then. Well done!
20 Feb 2017 19:40:42
Maybe, your facts ain't great.
20 Feb 2017 19:48:29
BigBear in your first post you said they haven't won the treble as yet, I replied saying yes we were poor but I look at it differently I'd expect 2nd biggest budget to win some when we fail, you then said should have won 5 trebles in a row (I'd already said we were poor, so I'm at a loss as to why you are getting your knickers in a twist) I then said (AGAIN) ) that we weren't great in those cups, pointed out Rangers less than magnificent challenge cup record to prove neither club has covered themselves in cup glory of late and then further acknowledged that your recent league failings are proof positive that budgets guarantee bugger all. I fail to see how I shat over my previous answer but enlighten me if you will.
20 Feb 2017 19:54:14
If that's the extent of your retort Joscro just give up. Look, it's no biggie, nobody picked you up on it at the time, well done, you got by with a bluff, but it was a bluff. ;)
20 Feb 2017 10:27:14
It appears yet again we are deep in crisis. No manager, very poor team who seem to accept defeat and A board who tell us very little of nothing.
Every week we slip to a new low and we the fans are expected to accept it. Is it too much to ask for players that try and put a good tackle in or chase a lost cause?
Where is the fight and pride in this team?
Disgusted and embarrassed with what I'm seeing. How I wish Ann Budge rather than king.
Honesty is best policy.
20 Feb 2017 12:21:37
I have still to see daily directors bulletins from ANY other club ANYWHERE
20 Feb 2017 12:35:52
I was watching reaction of the subs yesterday the team were struggling big time and they're all sitting smiling and laughing on the bench. wots Harry boy band forester all about he looked like he was auditioning for X factor when he came on. I think we could pull 11 guys out the gers end and they would not let us down like this lot.
20 Feb 2017 14:04:58
'Players' like MOH and Forrester obviously don't care when they can sit in the dugout and laugh and joke when we're 2-0 down. Don't play them again, get some young players in, the seasons finished anyway
20 Feb 2017 08:15:46
This attitude of 'we have to learn to accept failure' is totally wrong. If Aberdeen or Hearts had the budget that we had and could afford to spend £1.8million on a single player then I fear to think how far ahead of us they would be. Regardless of where we have been, a club our size, with our budget, should be nearer 1st than 12th (points wise) . It has been an abysmal season and we deserve better.
20 Feb 2017 08:23:53
That'll be why we sacked/ let go/ Who knows our manager, assistant manager and Head of Recruitment. We all know it's been a shambles. We were never meant to spend so much this year, but Warbs insisted on it.
20 Feb 2017 09:20:57
The manager was sacked because he wanted a move elsewhere. Very much doubt he would have been sacked before season's end otherwise. Besides, I meant the attitude of some fans
20 Feb 2017 09:21:29
what you say about it being a shambles is true but our great club was used and abused by White, Green, Ashley and the old board. We have not totally wasted the last five years but it's been close. The club needs strong leadership with clear goals. If Bates is not better then Keirnan then he has no future at Rangers. Give youth a chance, give one of them the last 15 minutes of a home game. Our two big signings of MOH and JG have been disappointing so we have not much to lose and everything to gain.
20 feb 2017 09:57:58
murray wasted it. who would sell the worlds most succesful football club for £1, why did dave king no buy it for the £1 as he had the chance to back then.
20 Feb 2017 10:27:08
Lance, King knew what trouble we were in. Also Murray sold it to Whyte, someone who was banned from being a director, Murray didn't even look into Whyte. Don't have a moan at King for not buying us for a £1, have a moan at Murray for doing a runner.
20 Feb 2017 12:01:33
Murray sold Rangers for £18M. The nominal sum of £1 was for the assets on the basis that the bank debt would be paid back! The business was insolvent and the assets effectively worthless hence the £1 nominal fee.
20 feb 2017 12:37:00
onlyshadow, i'm having a moan at murray, but king came in and started from fresh and according to most the club are now in as much debt now as they were then. why do most rangers fans want these ex people in charge, king and paul murray were on that board that put the club out of buisness.
had the chance of the american guys cash and fans told him where to go! why? what connection did souness, smith or mcleish have with the club before they arrived.
20 Feb 2017 07:37:32
This is not the worst team in years! Are they worse than the team who failed to get out of the championship? No!
Yes, I agree, some of these results have been hard to take but that's part and parcel of being a football fan. I'll be at Ibrox every home game and get behind the team whomever the manager is.
Swings and roundabouts guys.
It only takes a season to win a title! Remember just before McLeish took over? Just before Smith came back?
20 Feb 2017 11:50:25
Capucho would look like a star in this team
20 Feb 2017 12:02:39
You mean Capucho the UEFA cup winner? How good would he have look 2 seasons ago?
20 Feb 2017 03:28:06
Im as frustrated as every other Rangers fan. I have seen similar before. Early eighties we were rank rotten and finishing 3rd and 4th in league behind Aberdeen, Dundee Utd and Celtic. Keep the faith, we will get back to the top. just not as quick as we would all like. RTID.
20 Feb 2017 02:09:25
Ive been watching Reangers for many years now and this team has to be by far the worst Rangers team ever, what worries me more than that is what Good Manager is going to Manage them? unless there is the funds for a massive clear out of 90% of the squad and Money to buy much better players, which i doubt there is, this is all becoming the biggest embarrestment of all time both on and off the field, and i for one am getting really concerned for the only team i have ever loved and followed, All us fans deserve much Much better.
20 Feb 2017 03:20:25
I seem to recall watching a pretty awful Rangers team in the early 80's. Lucky to finish 3rd or 4th. in time it will improve. The good times will come again but may take some time. Be patient
20 Feb 2017 07:35:26
Unfortunately, the sense of entitlement with regard to success at our club will hinder us moving forward. When we found ourselves in division 3 we should've used it as an opportunity to get rid of all the overpaid dross and build a team from murray park. Instead, we paid big wages to black, sandaza, kyle, cribari etc and continue to do so with the current crop. We have an exciting bunch of 15-18 year olds right now. Exposing them to first team football would be brutal for a couple of years but you would see the boys progress much quicker than their peers and become better footballers in the long run.